Your Digital Marketing Coach with Neal Schaffer

Using Behavioral Science in Marketing [Nancy Harhut Interview]

• Neal Schaffer • Episode 323

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Discover the power of psychological principles in marketing as we chat with Nancy Harhut, author of "Using Behavioral Science in Marketing." Uncover why C-suite executives are recognizing the immense potential of incorporating behavioral science into their strategies and how you can stay ahead of the curve.

From leveraging the magnetic middle to exploring choice architecture, we discuss practical ways to tap into the hardwired behaviors and decision-making processes of your customers. By utilizing persuasive language, you'll learn how to craft content that captures your audience's attention and drives them to engage with your brand. Plus, hear about my experience using choice architecture to boost conversions significantly.

As the future of artificial intelligence continues to intersect with behavioral science, Nancy sheds light on how AI can enhance your marketing efforts. We delve into the use of AI for crafting compelling copy while stressing the importance of human interaction in closing sales. Don't miss this enlightening conversation with expert Nancy Harhut and elevate your marketing game by harnessing the power of behavioral science.

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Speaker 1:

Have you ever thought about the convergence of psychology and marketing? Is there a way that we can leverage psychology, or the way that people behave, to get them to better engage with us and buy more from us? Actually, there is a way to use behavioral science in marketing, and today I have the world's foremost expert on that very subject that I'm going to interview on this next episode of the your digital marketing coach podcast.

Speaker 2:

Good thing you've got Neil on your side, because Neil Schaefer is your digital marketing coach. Helping you grow your business with digital first marketing, one episode at a time. This is your digital marketing coach and this is Neil Schaefer.

Speaker 1:

Hey everybody, this is Neil Schaefer and I am your digital marketing coach. Today's special guest is someone that hired the opportunity to meet at Content Marketing World last year, but as I bought her book at the bookstore there. Her book is called Literally Using Behavioral Science in Marketing, drive Customer Action and Loyalty by Prompting Instinctive Responses. And hearing about all the amazing places she was speaking, including Content Marketing World, i'm like Nancy I got to get you on my podcast. Please accept my invite because I know what you have to share is going to be powerful for my listeners.

Speaker 1:

That is the backstory between how I know Nancy and her appearance on today's podcast. So we talk about a lot of things. I know behavioral science. It sounds like this very esoteric and potentially even boring subject. I guarantee you it's exciting when you understand the potential once you tap into it Understanding how your customers and prospects really make decisions, finding easy ways to trigger automatic, hardwired behaviors, the best phrases and frames to increase engagement and response These are the types of things that we talk about that I think you are going to find intriguing and powerful and applicable to your business. So, without further ado, here is my interview with Nancy Harhout, the author of Using Behavioral Science in Marketing.

Speaker 2:

You're listening to your digital marketing coach. This is Neil Schaefer.

Speaker 1:

Nancy Harhout, welcome to the Digital Marketing Coach podcast.

Speaker 3:

Neil, thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 1:

It was an honor to have met you in person at Content Marketing World Man I want to say recently, but it's already been six months. We're already getting ready for the next one, but it was really great to see your new book Using Behavioral Science in Marketing. In marketing, we always say that it's part science, part art and therefore today I think we're going to focus a lot on the science part. But as we were talking beforehand, nancy, you said that you are a marketer with a focus on behavioral science. I'd like to understand what got you into both marketing and behavioral science and seeing how the two fit together, nancy, Harhout.

Speaker 3:

All right, that's a great question. So what got me into marketing was I always like to write and I'm a copywriter by trade, but I always like to write And early on I thought that you had two options You either be the great American novelist, and that wasn't going to happen, or you'd be a journalist. So I went to Boston University, i studied journalism and I was doing fine, neil. But I looked around going into my senior year and I realized that some of my peers were really good. Like they had the fire in their belly, They had no problem taking a microphone, shoving it in someone's face and saying, hey, that's your house burning down, how do you feel? And I didn't have that. So I said, all right, i'll be good, but I'm never going to be great.

Speaker 3:

So I scrambled my senior year and I took anything else that involved writing that I could find There was corporate communications and public relations and advertising And I eventually found my way into advertising and never looked back. And then, somewhere along the course of my career, i read a book by Robert Cialdini called Influence the Psychology of Persuasion, and it was eye-opening for me And that's what sent me down the rabbit hole of behavioral science. I just started studying it and applying it and working more and more with it, and the rest is history, as they say.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that book influenced pun intended so many people. It is still one of the. There is not a book that has replaced it, and it's been around for what 20 years? I want to say.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, Cialdini just updated and reissued a second edition, which is it's got to be another 100 pages longer or something. I have it. I'm not through with it yet, though, but it's fabulous Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, i've yet to read the revised version either. So influence and obviously the psychology of persuasion, and therefore I think we get into the psychology. So, since reading that book, what sort of work have you done in the field of sort of integrating that into marketing?

Speaker 3:

So, you know, I started like kind of small scale. So I was reading the book, and reading anything I get my hands on, and so I started to apply, you know, the different things I was reading. I'd read something, i'd underline, make a margin note. I'd be thinking about the work that I was doing for my various clients. I'd be like, ooh, this might work to solve that problem, or I should try this with, you know, with this other problem. And as I started to test these different approaches, these different tactics, i was starting to see the results. And the more I saw the results, you know, the more I wanted to use these. And so I just, you know, i just began to kind of integrate it into the way that I did business. So it wasn't just marketing best practices, but it was marketing best practices plus the use of behavioral science.

Speaker 3:

And one good example is I was doing some work for a company that sold insurance to Dentist. So I know I just lost all of your listeners there. It's like Dentist insurance, ah, but stick with me because this is actually kind of interesting. But you know, the thing about getting someone to buy insurance is, you know, nobody wants to buy it, And if you can get them to buy it. They've checked off the list and they don't ever want to return to that decision. They were like I crossed it off my list. You know, i'm done with that. And the thing about insurance is you should really update it every couple of years just because things in life change You get married, you have children, your practice grows, you're making more money, you're getting closer to retirement, whatever it is. You know you really should check it.

Speaker 3:

But so they were trying to send these Dentist messages saying, hey, it's probably time that you took another look, maybe it's time to increase your policy. And it was crickets. They weren't getting anywhere. So I had read something about the pull of the magnetic middle which basically said that you know, for the most part humans, we don't like to be out on the bleeding edge. It doesn't feel all that comfortable, and for the most part we don't like to be lagging behind. That doesn't feel all that comfortable. Where we feel most comfortable, neil is kind of in the center. So I was like, how do I use that? So here's what we did. We sent out a communication to these Dentist and we included a chart And at one end of the chart there was $0, least amount of insurance you could have right None. And at the other end was $3 million. That was the most that this particular company sold.

Speaker 3:

And then we showed the Dentist where they were on the chart And in all cases we made sure we chose people who had less than 1.5 million right. So they were less than halfway across that chart. So at a quick glance when you looked at this, you would find that you were lagging right. You weren't in the center, you were left of center And we didn't expect that everyone was going to run all the way to the right side and purchase 3 million. But we did think we would move people closer to the center And we did.

Speaker 3:

And when I talk about moving people closer to the center, i'm talking about purchases made. We got these Dentists to buy more insurance. We got like a 300% lift over the control. Doing this, we moved them closer to that center point. Then that's when I was like all right, we got to go public with this. We should start to tell clients what we're doing and not just bake it in but specifically point out what we're baking in and why we're doing it. And that worked out really well.

Speaker 3:

Clients like this is interesting. A lot of times I talk to people when they're presenting their work And it's personal opinion. I like red, so I made it red. Oh, i thought this sounded good, so I wrote it that way And I was pointed to things saying well, there was a study from Harvard, there was a study from Stanford, there was a study from Yale. This experiment proved this, the research showed this, and clients were loving it because it was kind of empirical evidence. It was something that they could hang on to and go. Well, this makes sense And I get it. It may not always work. It may not always work for everyone, but we're testing this with a real foundation beneath it And it's worked pretty well.

Speaker 1:

I was going to say, if marketing should be data driven, that's the ultimate Right there. It's based on an empirical set of data that's been proven by one source, so that makes a lot of sense, and I think it's your own incident. As you were speaking, i'm thinking back to my water bill, And every month it says this is how much you used. This is how much you used last year. But, more importantly, if you want to be in the top 20% of water conservation in your community, this is where you need to be. So they've gamified it, but similar to the concepts you were talking about there. So when you did all this work, nancy, were you part of a company that just focused on this, or were you more like a solo consultant helping businesses?

Speaker 3:

So it's funny When I first read Chaldeany's book and started to apply these things, i was working for other companies. I was at Mullen for a while And I was at Hill Holiday These are both big ad agencies that are part of the IPG network And then eventually I found my way to a smaller agency And with that agency that was when I did the dentist thing And we decided we're going to go public with this. There are a lot of small agencies out there And it's tough to differentiate a small agency And a lot of times you say, well, you're getting the big agency talent at more direct access and better prices. And every small agency says that. So we said we're going to be a small agency And we're going to go out with behavioral science and marketing best practices, and that seemed to work very well for us.

Speaker 3:

We were what's the sports metaphor punching above our weight class. With that. We were attracting national clients that really would have had no particular business finding us, but they did And they were liking the work And the word was spreading. And then eventually I spun off on my own with some of the people that I had been working with at that agency And we created our own place called HBT Marketing. The HBT stands for human behavior triggers, because that's what we're all about, and so now I'm doing it kind of for my own agency, but it started when I was working for other agencies And those clients were benefiting from it.

Speaker 1:

Amazing story. Thank you for sharing that. So I'm just really curious, nancy. when clients come to you, it sounds like the approach is you need to understand what their challenges are And then you're going through your toolbox of experience and theories and principles regarding behavior science to find things that they can implement to make their marketing more effective. Is that? I'm just trying to think in terms of the listener, that is, the entrepreneur, the business owner, the marketer, saying, hey, how might Nancy be able to help our business? Is that sort of the approach Like it starts with what is the challenge that they have And then how can you apply what you do to help them solve that challenge? Would that be a good description?

Speaker 3:

Neil, that's spot on. I think a lot of times marketers will be like OK, what do I want to tell my prospects? What do I want to tell my customers? What are all the good things, all the reasons why they should buy my product, all the reasons why they should sign up for my service? And what I'd like to look at is what are the reasons someone isn't going to want to do what we're asking them to do, because that's what we need to focus on. So we want to find that big barrier that's holding someone back from doing what we want them to do, and then we want to find the right argument to overcome it. And very often, part of the argument to overcome it is going to involve one of these behavioral science principles, or more than one.

Speaker 3:

Maybe you've got a product and you're rolling it out to a new geography. So you've got a great product, you know it's good and all, but you're in a new geography And so a buying barrier might be people haven't heard of you. So what can we do? Well, we could tap into social proof. Social proof is the behavioral science principle that says, when people aren't certain of what to do, they look around, they see what other people are doing and they follow their lead.

Speaker 3:

So maybe we want to talk about the number of happy customers we have. Or we want to run testimonials from people so that, even though they may not know your company name, when they start to read this information like OK, that makes sense. Or maybe we want to try the authority principle. Maybe we want to talk about the fact that the American Dental Association endorsed us or were members of the Better Business Bureau, or some really famous person in our field indicated that we were really good and used our product. So we'd start to look at what's the buying barrier and then what are the best ways to overcome it.

Speaker 3:

And in my book I talk about about 25 different behavioral science principles. There are actually hundreds of them, but I've got my 25 go-tos that seem to have worked well over and over and over again for various clients, and they're the ones that I talk about in the book. So you kind of look at that toolbox, as you said, and say which ones are the likely ones to work, and then we want to test them and see which ones work the best, and that's where we put our effort and our money behind.

Speaker 1:

So, Nancy, that's really fascinating. It makes a lot of sense. I'm just curious, though, that when the normal way in which marketers work is very much sort of channel-focused, like Facebook or blogging or SEO or conceptual right But behavioral science doesn't come out as much in the dialogue and the discourse as it probably should, right, And I'm sure you'd agree. So how do companies understand that they can take advantage of this? How do you? are they like finding out about you after reading your book? Are they coming to the conclusion on their own? How do you evangelize this concept? Because I think that every business, even the smallest of business, could take advantage of what you offer, But I think that very few people are talking about the subject.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's a good question And I would love to say the answer is yes, they're reading my book and everyone is. That's how they're finding out about it. But that's a portion of it. I mean, i will say, for HBT marketing, we're getting clients because of the book, because of some of the speaking I've done on podcast and at conferences and things like that. But, that said, behavioral science is beginning to bubble up.

Speaker 3:

There have been other verticals, disciplines, industries, if you will, that have kind of jumped on it before marketing. Oddly enough, you see it in education, you see it in healthcare, you see it in politics and in marketing, which it's tailor made for, because behavioral science is all about how people make decisions and marketing is all about getting people to make decisions. Marketing is tailor made for it or it's tailor made for marketing. We're a little late to the party, but we're not entirely late because we're starting to see in the C suite chief behavioral officers, chief behavioral science officers or SVPs of behavioral science. We're starting to see that pop up in the C suite, which is great. And there are other books out there in addition to mine that are starting to explore the topic. Mine is square on with marketing, others maybe circle around it a little bit, but it's out that Richard Schaun has a great book. There's mine. Yes, i do like mine.

Speaker 3:

But Roger Dooley has a terrific book, so there are some books out there, so it's starting to take root in marketing, which is great, where maybe not as far along as healthcare or education, but it's definitely out there.

Speaker 1:

So you mentioned Roger Dooley and I've been on his podcast before and he has a great book as well. So would you say that behavioral science and marketing, that neuro marketing is another term for it, or is there a slight difference between the two terms?

Speaker 3:

So I think they're definitely related. I talk about behavioral science as being the study of how people behave. It's pretty simple definition of it, but it really is the study of how people behave And it's kind of this combination of psychology and sociology and cognitive science. And then when we get into neuroscience or neuro marketing, it's again how people make decisions, the shortcuts that the mental shortcuts, the shortcuts that their brains use, the biases that we all have. So they're all related. As you get into neuro marketing, a lot of times what you find is the discussion will go more towards literally observing people's brain, So maybe putting them into fMRI machines or attaching them to different equipment so you can measure their galvanic skin response, which is basically their perspiration, and things like that. But it's all part and parcel of the same field of study, which is basically just how people respond, why we do what we do, the mental shortcuts that we take, the biases and the heuristics that we have.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's really interesting. I could see how behavioral science is a broader umbrella that encompasses many things, including neuro marketing, so that made a lot of sense. So I think a lot of listeners are thinking, okay, i get it, but how, exactly? like? what are the first steps I can do outside of calling you up and hiring you to be able to implement these best practices in our work? And one of the things that, before we began the interview, we were talking about, some of the things we wanna cover today. One of them that you brought up was to understand how your customers and prospects really make decisions, and I think, as we live in a digital world, this becomes even more fascinating.

Speaker 1:

When people are on your digital properties, what are the triggers? But I wanna take a step back. I mean, how would you for all the businesses listening who think they understand how their customers and prospects are making decisions? but I'm assuming that when you pose this question, that they got it all wrong. So I'm curious as to what is that decision making process that people or companies are undertaking when they are deciding on whether or not to buy your product or service.

Speaker 3:

Sure.

Speaker 3:

So I think a lot of times we assume that people make well thought out, well considered decisions, that they're making choices based on their wants or their needs, or the research they've done or their past experiences, and all of that is true to a certain extent, but very often there are other factors at play, factors that people aren't even aware of.

Speaker 3:

The research shows that up to 95% of purchase decision making actually takes place in the subconscious mind, and the reason for this is it would be virtually impossible for people to weigh every bit of information before making a decision. We just never get around to making it or to making any. So what we've done as humans is we've developed certain automatic, instinctive, reflexive responses, certain hardwired behaviors, and what it allows us to do is kind of cruise along through life on autopilot. We encounter a certain situation and we can just default to these hardwired behaviors, giving them little, if any, thought. So one example is people have a tendency to choose the middle option. If you put three things in front of somebody, it's like you just gravitate towards the middle one, not all the time Most popular right.

Speaker 3:

But yeah, or if you see, most popular or one thing is social. I'm not social proof, social proof would be most popular The idea of loss aversion. Behavioral scientists have found that people are twice as motivated to avoid the pain of loss as they are to achieve the pleasure of gain. So what that would suggest to us as marketers is we wanna put a little bit of loss aversion into our messages. Instead of saying, hey, take advantage of this, we might wanna say don't miss out on this. So it's little things like that.

Speaker 3:

And in marketing we think it's all about the benefits. And I don't wanna tell your listeners to avoid benefits. We know that they work, we don't wanna avoid them. But a little bit of well-placed loss aversion can go a long way, because as much as people like benefits and gains and advantages, what they like even more is avoiding mistakes, avoiding losses, avoiding missteps. So it's how we serve up our messages. We wanna get the right message to the right person at the right time. That old chest not right. But we wanna do it in the right way. We wanna do it in a way that's brain-friendly, a way that's gonna be most likely to get someone's attention, to make sure that they understand the message, to make sure that they remember it and they act upon it, and behavioral science will help us do that.

Speaker 1:

So it's really just this form of thinking that should permeate how we write our copy, how we write our advertising, the email subject line. It really should go into all of that. It should be one of these tools in our mind And, if we follow what you just said, that's gonna help us be a little bit more effective in everything we do. Basically, right.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's just remembering that people are making decisions and they're being influenced in ways they're not even aware of. So we can ask our customers and prospects why did you do that? And they'll tell us what they honestly believe. I mean, they're not trying to mislead us, but what's turned out is what research has shown is that sometimes they don't even know that they're influenced by something and they don't even know why.

Speaker 3:

There was a research study that was done in Leicester, england, which is about an hour and 10 minutes northwest of London if you're taking the train, and there was a wine shop there, and what they did is they played nothing but German music in the background and they watched as 73% of the customers purchased German wine. And then they changed the music. They played nothing but French music in the background. They watched as 77% of the customers purchased French wine. But here's where it gets interesting, neil. They asked people well, why did you buy the wine? you did? Nobody mentioned there are virtually nobody mentioned the music. I think maybe one person did. Now, clearly, there was something at play there. If you heard the German music, you were predisposed to buy German wine. If you heard the French, you were gravitating towards the French wine, and so that's a great example of the fact that we make decisions.

Speaker 3:

We think we know why we're doing them, but there are other factors at play that are influencing us And, as marketers, if we can remember that, we can start to use it to our advantage As marketers. At first we might be terrified and we hear that, well, like oh my God, i have no control, like everything I'm trying to do, it turns out that it may not work because there are these other factors. But what it really means is, as marketers, we should harness those other factors and use what science has proven about human behavior in order to influence it, in order to get the response that we're looking for, or at least to increase the likelihood that we'll get that response.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it makes so much sense because I think, as marketers, we tend to be too much focused on us instead of them, right? And as we focus on them, what are those Psychological triggers? and I want to, i want to bring up the next question, which is you say that there are these automatic hardware behaviors that people have and that there are easy ways to trigger them. So I'm really curious as to how we can all take advantage of that in our marketing.

Speaker 3:

Sure, okay. So you know. one way is, you know, this idea of loss aversion instead of saying take advantage of, you say Don't miss. So that that's one way. We talked a little bit about social proof, you know, don't just say we've got the product, talk about how many other people are enjoying the product. You know, one way is the idea of something known as choice architecture. In choice architecture, very simply, is How choices are presented, because the way choices are presented actually influences how people respond to them. And you know, you might think well, you know, choices of choices of choice, what difference does it make? But how you display something, how you offer something, can make a difference.

Speaker 3:

We had a client that was Selling here we go with insurance again different kind of insurance, but still insurance, but a client that was selling insurance at the workplace. So the idea was, it was voluntary insurance, you know. And what they would do is they would send out an email and they would say hey, neil, the insurance representative is going to be here on Tuesday. Sign up for an appointment, you can meet with them, You can hear about all the new products that they have and if you're interested, you can, you know, you can sign up for one, you know, totally voluntarily. But you know up to you and you know what would happen. People's eyes would roll back in their heads And very few people would sign up. So we use some choice architecture. We sent out an email. We said hey, neil, the insurance representative is going to be here on Tuesday. We've set up an appointment for you, at it two o'clock in room 13a. You know I have to do a show up and you'll be all set. You can hear all about it And if you're interested, you can make a purchase. And then you know, a little bit further down in the email was a link that said you know, click here if you need to reschedule.

Speaker 3:

And what we experienced was a 418% increase in the number of people showing up right, because we used to. You know, in the past You had to go through the effort of signing up. It was just a lot easier to do nothing. So what we did is we use some choice architecture to make it easier to do nothing and show up right. Like we already set up, the meeting for you would require more effort to get out of it. You'd have to reschedule it or say no, no, i want to cancel it.

Speaker 3:

We just made it so easy. And that's how the human brain works. You know we take the path of least resistance. We like to do things that are easy and by using that bit of choice architecture, we got that 418% increase in number of people showing up, and then that resulted in a 19% increase in policies purchased. So, you know, it headed as you might imagine more people to show up, more product. You're going to move right, you know So, but it was a simple little switch and it was, you know, just changing the way things had always been done, but changing it in a way that made, you know, made sense, as we took into account how people make decisions. You know you don't want to go through the effort. We want to remove as much friction or as many barriers as possible. We want to make it as easy as possible.

Speaker 1:

So, on that note, what are you know? you've mentioned sort of changing the language Based on, you know, behavioral science and all these data studies. What have you? What are some of the best phrases and frames? you've already brought up some of them, but in your mind, what are the best phrases and frames that people listening can utilize to help increase engagement And response and, ultimately, conversion?

Speaker 3:

sure, So one of them revolves around the notion of novelty. So the human brain is is hardwired to seek out the new and novel, and We do it because when we find something that we think is new, it releases dopamine in our brain and that's a very feel good Chemical, among other things, it just makes us feel good And so, as a result, we're constantly jonesing for that next state of dopamine. We're constantly looking for the next new thing. So anytime we can use new now, introducing, announcing, finally, soon. If you're looking for a verb, go with discover, don't use learn. Learn sounds like a lot of work. I have to learn this and you're. You know, you're all the way back in second grade math class And you want to be outside, at research or recess rather, but you're stuck inside with your nose in a book. You know, but discover. Well, that sounds like fun, right, you know. So, discover this, find out this, gain this. Explorer. Yes, you know, just this whole idea of novelty is a wonderful thing.

Speaker 3:

Another great word to use is the word you, and you reference something. A little bit earlier You said you know we. We talk a lot about ourselves and you know business. We talk about our products, our company, our service, and the truth of the matter is that's not nearly as is interesting to To our readers or to our listeners, as the word you. So, as people are skimming and scanning, they kind of gloss over I, we all are our company, but when they see the word you, they zero in on it because you represents them and we're way more interested in ourselves Than in anyone else. So if we can use the word you, that's, that's really really good. Another powerful word is the word secrets, and the word secrets is so powerful because Parable scientists have shown that people are actually more persuaded by information They believe is not widely available, and the secret would absolutely represent information That's not widely available. So too would a sneak peek or the behind the scenes look, or the real truth or the facts behind. You know, anytime we can use a word or a phrase that conveys the idea that we have information that not everyone else has, people will gravitate towards that it's.

Speaker 3:

It goes back to the idea of scarcity, you know where. We're just more motivated by things that are in short supply, and that's something that's hardwired into us Since I think back in our caveman days, right Where our ancient ancestors, would you know, would have to be finding the things that would sustain life, and you know We would would hoard anything that was important to us. You know it's like. You know there's only so many resources to go around. We have to get ours and then they'll be gone if we don't, you know. So this idea of scarcity is hardwired into us. Maybe it kept us alive way back then. Now, you know it's just a a shortcut that we use as we navigate through the day, and if we find information that we think is scarce, right, it's little known, it's a secret We pay attention, we're much more likely to. I'll give you one more. You have time for one more.

Speaker 1:

Oh, this is awesome. Yeah, this is great, keep going sure, sure.

Speaker 3:

So another real powerful word that we can use is the word because.

Speaker 3:

And um, there's a researcher that came out of Harvard, her name is Ellen Langer, and she identified the word because as an automatic compliance trigger.

Speaker 3:

Essentially, when we see or hear it, we just start to nod up and down, we start to agree, we're in this agreeable mindset Before we've even processed what comes next. So she ran this experiment. There are a bunch of people that were lined up to use a photocopier. She sent someone to the head of the line and she instructed them to say excuse me, can I cut in front of you? And 60 percent of the time six zero 60 percent of the time they were allowed to cut. So that's our baseline. Now she repeats the experiment a second time, but this time she instructs the person to go to the front of the line and say excuse me, can I cut in front of you because I'm in a hurry and have some copies to make? Well, the 60 percent number jumps to 94 percent. And as I tell you this new, you might say well, they said they were in a hurry. But Langer repeats the experiment one last time, instructs a person to go to the head of line and say, excuse me, can I cut in front of you because I have some copies to make? the 94 percent number drops to 93 percent. 1 percent drops Statistically insignificant, still that same huge lift over the baseline 60.

Speaker 3:

Now think about it. Everybody's standing in that line. We're standing in that line because they had some copies to make, right? They don't stand in line at the photocopier to get a coffee. It doesn't work that way. Right? She identified the word because, as an automatic compliance trigger, when we see it, when we hear it, we're just agreeing. We don't even process what comes next. It's like you get to the word because and we figure it's a good, legitimate reason. So what that suggests to us as marketers is we want to provide the reason why we're asking people to do what we're asking them to do, and the better the reason. Well, the better the reason. But it doesn't have to be this ironclad, bullet proof reason. It doesn't have to be you know, buy my product and you'll become a millionaire. Great, if we could say it. But very few of us can make that kind of a claim. So just close the circle. Explain why somebody should do what we're asking them to.

Speaker 1:

That's really fascinating. I'm thinking that one takeaway for everyone listening could be these sort of trigger phrases that you talked about. Almost make notes of them and put them like stick them on the wall around you So that when you are writing copy, you can always be referencing them right. Obviously, everyone should be buying a copy of using behavioral science and marketing, but I want to finish this conversation. You know when we last met up a content marketing role.

Speaker 1:

This is September and oh my, how the marketing world has changed. We've always had AI, right. We've always had tools like Jasper, but obviously just this emergence of chat, gpt and the mainstream way in which AI is really like the internet itself did two decades ago. So you mentioned some of these trigger phrases. It's really interesting because originally the title for this podcast or this live stream however you're consuming this content was using behavioral science and marketing. So I put this through vidIQ, which is a YouTube tool which also, like every other tool, has some AI capabilities. So it came back with a title that I thought was really great The truth about behavioral science and marketing. Parentheses hint, it's fascinating, close parentheses. So I'm just really curious, nancy, from your perspective.

Speaker 1:

With this emergence of AI, it almost seems like there's gotta be a way. I don't think you can hard code it, but there's gotta be a way. There's gotta be a tool or some processes together with these AI tools, with certain prompts, that can lead us to the sort of verbates that you're talking about, that sort of a hack, right? I'm really curious as to whether or not you think that's possible, because AI really it gets at the core of sort of behavioral science, i suppose. But what is your take on this? And if there was any recommendations you had whether to use a tool or not to use a tool, i think this would really be invaluable advice coming from someone that specializes in this.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you know, it adds to the million dollar question, i think, and it is one that I've been thinking about. So I suppose at some point it is theoretically possible for the AI to know about these behavioral science prompts and to begin to incorporate them into the copy that it puts out. That said, at this stage of the game, there are a couple of things we need to keep in mind. One is that the empathy that humans can add to writing isn't quite there yet with AI. The other is, i think the knowledge base stops at 2021. Is that right, correct?

Speaker 1:

I think GPT-4 has brought it forward a little bit, but yeah, it's still behind for sure.

Speaker 3:

So there's gonna be a little bit lacking. And then Christopher Graves from Ogilvy ran an experiment where he was asking about a particular behavioral science principle And he asked AI to generate some information. And he said what he got back was really very interesting and very detailed, and it had all of these citations, and he was like, oh, it's really cool. He was amazed, and so then he started to check the citations and he couldn't seem to find them. So he asked AI did you make these up? Are they real? And the response was yes, i made them up. And so he was like well, that's a problem.

Speaker 3:

You can't be citing citations that don't exist, particularly for science. And so there are still a few things we need to worry about or be cautious about, but in the future, i certainly can see behavioral science being part of many things that artificial intelligence pulls in to craft the copy that we're looking for. At this stage of the game, i don't think we're quite there, but, as you said, things are changing so rapidly. Who knows Just. I mean, the sky's the limit, it seems.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and what I'm seeing and I'm sure you've seen it as well, nancy with all the different AI tools, they all have different implementations. They all deliver different results. So the vidIQ model or database is looking at YouTube titles that probably perform really well and trying to replicate them right, and obviously maybe a lot of people have read your book and that's what. So I can see how that got ingested. When I do the same thing in another tool, i'll get different results that aren't, as to me, as good, but then again, it's also, i suppose, on the other end, nancy, it's a human decision. At the end of the day, you have three different results from the AI. Which one do you use? It's gonna come down to how well you understand these principles, so we'll never be 100% relying on all this, right.

Speaker 3:

Right. but it's a great tool to help us test, to surface ideas, to test to surface suggestions. And I mean, i can certainly see a situation or a scenario where we say here's what the problem is, what are the most likely behavioral science principles that would make sense to try to get out there to overcome this problem? And so it could kind of short circuit some of the research we're doing and maybe give us some ideas about how to craft something. And then, of course, we can kind of pop it in finesse and edit.

Speaker 3:

If you think about the book that I just wrote, it's got a lot of research in it which I didn't do. It's got some case studies, many of which I worked on, some of which I referenced. but then it also has some personal anecdotes And you could argue that if you fed this into AI, they could probably pull the research, although it may or may not have been accurate, but they could probably pull the research studies. they could probably pull the case studies. but what an artificial intelligence source couldn't do was write the book that I wrote, because I pulled my own personal experiences, my own observations, things that happened to me that just wouldn't be out there, and I think that's a book, but as we talk about marketing, some of that human element is still very important to making the sale, and that's something that, at this stage of the game, you're only getting from humans.

Speaker 1:

And the human connection as well, right, And then this goes back into the psychology and Dr Chaldini. But yeah, it's really fascinating just seeing how this is all evolving. And I agree with you I mean, even Google has said it's not about expertise, authority and trustworthiness, it's also about experience, right, I have two high school age kids and my wife has a word like oh, everyone's gonna use chat. You can write these great essays, But at the end of the day, if you're writing like a college admission essay, you have to talk about your experience, right, And you have to go deep on it. And I think a reader that is human is gonna be able to see. As I grade papers for my UCLA Extension class in Influenza Marketing, I'm trying to see are there sort of like unnatural, like sentences here that clearly look like they're written from AI, or are they basing it on their own project? So I do have faith that and I do believe there will be tools that will help us as well as we go forward.

Speaker 1:

Nancy, But this has just been a fascinating and really, to me, fun conversation. I love having conversations with smart marketers who, I mean, we go beyond data driven to really science driven marketing, which, to me is just this whole other field that is so untapped, as you know. So keep preaching, keep going forward. Obviously everyone listening. Nancy Harhut, you should go out and buy the book wherever fine books are sold. Using behavioral science and marketing, drive customer action and loyalty by prompting instinctive responses. Cogun Page, excellent publisher out of the United Kingdom. Nancy, where else can people go to find out more about you and to engage with you?

Speaker 3:

Well, thank you, great question. You know I'm on Twitter at and Harhut, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Facebook And the agency that I co-founded, HBT Marketing, which stands for Human Behavior Triggers, is at hbtmktgcom And you can find some of the stuff I've written, some other interviews I've been on at that website, So I would love to hear from your listeners. You know, drop me a line, connect with me on social, Be happy to engage. Thank you.

Speaker 1:

That is awesome, nancy, and because I use an AI tool that whenever we talk about links and show notes, it will know to get those wwwcom URLs, we'll make sure automatically that those links are in the show notes. Thank you, but, nancy, this has been great. Thank you so much. I can't wait to run into you again at the next marketing conference. I'm sure it won't be long. Best of success and thanks again for joining.

Speaker 3:

Thank you so much for having me. I look forward to running into you again as well, but thank you, this was terrific. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1:

All right, i hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did, is it, nancy? Just a wealth of information and advice at a extremely high level of understanding of behavioral science. So it's a very, very unique niche, but I think you can see why she is so popular on the Speaking Circuit and her bestselling book of all that knowledge. So definitely, if you're interested in finding out more, i hope you will reach out to her. If you need more help with your digital content influence of social media marketing.

Speaker 1:

I don't talk a lot about this in the podcast, but I help businesses and entrepreneurs and startup founders, content creators, in a variety of ways, but primarily I have a monthly group mastermind called Digital First, where we meet on weekly Zoom calls. It is limited to 15 people to maintain high quality And right now we are actually at that 15 person cap. But if you go to nealshafercom slash membership, you can also sign up to be on the waiting list for when we have an opening. I also offer more individualized, personal, fractional CMO consulting services. These are done for as little as one hour a week on a three month contract, so obviously a service like this is going to be customized to what your needs are will be more expensive than the group mastermind, but if that is something that is interesting as well, you can go to nealshafercom, slash, cmo And you know what.

Speaker 1:

If you're not ready for either of those and you just enjoy listening to this podcast, it's absolutely free. But if you were to share this on your socials with a screenshot, give it a five star ranking on whatever app you're listening to and, you know, write a little review of one or two sentences, it would really make my day, and that, ultimately, is the ROI of creating these podcasts for your ears. Listening pleasure. All right, everybody. That's another wrap for another episode of the original marketing coach podcast. This is your digital marketing coach, neil Schaefer, signing off.

Speaker 2:

You've been listening to your digital marketing coach. Questions, comments, requests, links. Go to podcastnealshafercom Get the show notes to this and 200 plus podcast episodes and nealshafercom to tap into the 400 plus blog posts that Neil has published to support your business. While you're there, check out Neil's digital first group coaching membership community If you or your business needs a little helping hand. See you next time on your digital marketing coach.