Your Digital Marketing Coach with Neal Schaffer

Mastering Content Creation: Insights from Melanie Deziel, from Journalism to Digital Marketing

• Neal Schaffer • Episode 327

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Ever wondered how to brew compelling content that sets you apart? Join me for a riveting conversation with Melanie Deziel, a content wizard who began her journey in journalism and went on to shape the digital marketing world. This episode is loaded with Melanie's intriguing anecdotes - from creating branded content for the Huffington Post and the New York Times to her time as the Director of Creative Strategy at Time Inc. Plus, she recounts the challenging yet triumphant book launch of Content Fuel during a global pandemic. 

Melanie shares her ingenious approach to content creation, leveraging AI and chat GPT ideation to keep the content wheel spinning. She gives us a sneak peek into her latest book, Prove It, a manifesto of her belief in earning audience trust through content. We'll explore the idea of content as evidence, validating business claims and fueling digital marketing drives. 

Lastly, we delve into the heart of content creation, exploring Melanie's distinct content fuel framework. She underlines the importance of 'focus' and 'format' in the content ideation process, and how the delicate interplay between the two shapes engaging content. We also discuss potential roadblocks to ideation and innovation in companies, and how leaders can catalyze creativity within their teams. Tune in for an enlightening conversation brimming with practical tips and insights. Don't miss it!

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Speaker 1:

Content is the currency of digital marketing, content marketing. Obviously, we could say the same thing about influencer marketing, about social media marketing. Content is central to everything we do in digital, but we don't talk enough about how we go about actually creating more creative and compelling content. Well, today I have the foremost expert on teaching how to go about doing exactly that, but you'll have to listen in on this next episode of the Digital Marketing Coach podcast to find out the details. Hey everybody, neil Schaefer, here I am, your digital marketing coach, and welcome to my podcast.

Speaker 1:

For those that are new here, this podcast encompasses the entire spectrum of everything digital, because digital marketing is not just digital marketing, it's SEO, it's content marketing, it's influencer marketing, it's social media marketing, it's paid media, it's blogging, etc. Etc. Etc. Every week, either through a guest of mine or through my own experience with customers or thoughts, as I also create my own content, i look for topics and ideas and people that I think can not only inspire you, but inspire me as well. Well, today I finally had a chance to do a one-on-one with a very, very special guest that I will shortly introduce, who really is one of these handful of experts on content. So, without further ado, i'm going to jump into the interview because I talk about the story of how I found out about her, how our careers intersected over the last decade, but the respect that I have for her and everything that you're going to learn in this episode, i'm so excited for this. Let's just jump right into my interview with the one and only Melanie Diesel.

Speaker 2:

You're listening to your digital marketing coach. This is Neil Schaefer.

Speaker 1:

Hey, everybody, create compelling content. There is no one that I think no one more appropriate to talk about the subject than today's guest, melanie Diesel. So Melanie may not remember and probably doesn't know the second story, but I want to share before I bring her on stage and have her introduce yourself. I knew Melanie, boy. I want to say it was like eight years ago.

Speaker 1:

I ran a conference called the Social Tool Summit and there were a bunch of people that reached out to to be speakers. Melanie was one reached out to us. Melanie, i believe at the time and you'll have to respond when you get on stage you're working at Time Magazine. I believe The event was in Boston. You were going to make it and then you couldn't make it. I forgot what happened and I didn't have a chance to meet you, but you were going to be on our content marketing panel. So it's like huh, i always had that name in my head.

Speaker 1:

And then fast forward social media marketing world 2020. I am there. I just came out with the age of in fact, it was a few weeks before publishing the age of influence. So I brought like 20 copies, like I'm going to hand these out and build some buzz And guess what?

Speaker 1:

Everybody at social media marketing world was carrying this book that said content fuel. Right, i'm like what's going on here? And it was Melanie diesel. She outgrowth hacked me, she out buzzed me at social media marketing world because everybody had a copy of the content fuel framework book in their hand. Everybody was already reading it. Even though I did not get to meet Melanie personally until I bring her on stage right now, she is someone that's been deep, deep in my mind as being one of these content marketing experts that I really wanted to tap into, not only for your education, but also for my own education. So, without further ado, melanie, that's my Melanie diesel stories. Welcome to the. I don't know how many of those you remember, but that's amazing. Definitely social media marketing world. We never met, but I felt we were probably one person away from compression shoulders there.

Speaker 3:

We definitely were. Well, first of all, i feel you on launching a book right before the pen, right around the pandemic, because that was certainly a challenge. I think the only reason I had more buzz is my book launch was literally that day, so there was a book signing, so it was like a, it was a whole thing. But you know, two days later we were on lockdown.

Speaker 1:

So Exactly, it was such a weird. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times and no one could have predicted it, and but very well done. So, melanie, i want to, i want to give you the put already hinted at sort of the your past, and you know, you have this very, very unique and refreshing view about content that I know a lot of marketers, i know a lot of businesses that just love. So I want to find out more about Melanie diesel That brought you to this point in your life where you wrote two books about content marketing.

Speaker 3:

I'm wondering how far to start, how far back I should start. But I come to the world of marketing by way of journalism, so I never intended to be a marketer, i didn't study to be a marketer And I like to joke that I'm just doing journalism and no one really knows. I basically have taken all the best practices that I learned trying to be a journalist, all the tools, all the you know, that sort of ethics and editorial conscience, if you will, from the journalism side of things, and brought that over to marketing. So I did that at the Huffington Post where I helped them build their first brand storytelling team. The same thing at the New York Times. I was their first ever editor of branded content.

Speaker 3:

And then, as you mentioned, i was at Time Incorporated most recently and I was working as director of creative strategy for content programs across all 35 of the US magazines, including Time. But since then I sort of have set out on my own It's going to be almost 10 years now, set out on my own to to keep teaching this stuff, to keep you know how, hopefully get to reach more folks, and I think probably that situation where I couldn't make it to the event was probably my day job interfering, and so now I have the privilege of this being my day job, where I get to talk about content all the time.

Speaker 1:

So we saw this big you being a former journalist. We saw obviously with the advent of the internet well, everybody basically going electric and going digital, yeah That there were a lot of journalists that were sort of fighting for jobs. I know some of them went to content marketing. Some of them might not have What drove you to go from journalism? I guess you already had the experience of branded content So maybe it was an easy move for you. But what made you go? I mean, you're sort of I'm not saying going to the dark side, but journalism and then corporate America.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's sort of the dark side Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, what brought you to make that decision?

Speaker 3:

It was purely opportunistic. So I had gone back to grad school, studied arts and cultural criticism again, still expecting to fully to get into journalism and continue on that path. And that was exactly right around the time when all these newsrooms were downsizing, they were getting rid of jobs, everything was going digital and revenue was plummeting. So I had been working with a couple of recruiters who were trying to get me into an editorial role, and one of them had the foresight to say hey, this is sort of a business marketing role, but I think that your skill set is well aligned, What do you think? And that was the Huffington Post job, so managed to get in there.

Speaker 3:

And it's always a combination of I don't mean to discount my talents and the hard work that I did, but it's also a bit of a timing thing. This was the early days of native advertising as sort of a buzzword, and so I came in at a really good time when there weren't many experts to compete with. So, having been done it for only a year, at that point I was one of the experts. There weren't that many of us. So it was kind of a combination of good timing and foresight by that recruiter.

Speaker 1:

And then when you came in, i suppose when you decided to go on your own, you were, i'm assuming, offering I don't know if you were a content marketing agency, content marketing consultant a little bit of both. What role did you play that? because going on on your own is another huge decision, going from journalism to the dark side and then, on your own, attacking the dark side. So what was the original sort of business model? I suppose that brought you to GoSolo.

Speaker 3:

So I think it was a combination of things. I was doing a fair amount of speaking and, with the exception of COVID, had continued to do that. So that's always been part of my revenue since I stepped out on my own. But I was at the time doing a ton of consulting. So consulting was sort of the main source of income And it was mostly, truthfully, folks that I had worked with on the corporate side who, when finding out that I was out on my own, wanted to kind of continue to work with me as well.

Speaker 3:

So I was very blessed to have sort of a pipeline of awesome clients already built in through the work that I was doing. And then over time I sort of had to expand because I was very native. advertising is not talked about as much as it was then, but it was sort of seen as separate from branded content. So I had to broaden my expertise in positioning and then broaden it out further to content marketing to make sure that I wasn't pigeonholed as just that person who helps you do brand content on a media site.

Speaker 1:

Got it. That makes a lot of sense. So fast forward to 2020. And I'm assuming you work with a major publisher. You probably wrote the book in 2019, like I wrote my book. So what brought you then to write a book? And I'm assuming that many great authors that content fuel framework was based on the decade of work that you were already doing, that you put a structure around to share with everybody, right?

Speaker 3:

Absolutely Yeah. So basically, what's in content fuel framework is pretty much exactly what I had been teaching in corporate workshops up to that point. So the biggest issue that I found, at least in the clients I was talking to at the time was I don't know what to post. We're running out of new things to say. It feels like we're telling the same stories over and over. I really had to do I joke, but like some soul searching because truthfully, coming from journalism, it had never occurred to me to think of content as like a non-renewable resource, like there's always more stories to tell. You've got another paper tomorrow or another website update later on today. So I had to really think what's happening in my head when I'm rolling this out, when I'm coming up with ideas, and that's pretty much what I put into content fuel framework. So the content was all in here already. I just had to put it to paper.

Speaker 1:

So you know we're not going to go an hour. Well, i don't know how long we'll last half an hour or whatever but we're not going to go that long without the topic of AI coming into the conversation. And I was on a webinar this morning. It was like 17 minutes in and I was the first one out of four panelists that throw it out there. And I'm going to throw it out now and I know we're going to fast forward a little bit to maybe something we were going to talk about later, but obviously I'm assuming you would agree. One of the amazing things about AI and chat GPT is the ideation that can come from it, and I'm of the field that, even with my high school children, they should understand the tool and how to utilize it to make their work even better, and I think the ideation is so crucial. So I'm curious with content fuel framework and with chat GPT ideation, is this the perfect combination? What's your take on that and how it fits into the work you've done until now?

Speaker 3:

That's a really good question, and nobody has asked me that yet, so I think I have to think more on that Nobody has that. Yeah, nobody's asked me that.

Speaker 1:

I'm not going to take names, but we'll talk about them.

Speaker 3:

What I will say is before all the chat GPT stuff kind of rose to the top, i was working with an AI company kind of trying to figure out how could we turn the content fuel framework into an interactive interface so that people could put in some parameters and then using the system from the book to kind of spit out some options. So I think it can be a total natural partner. I think I have some skepticism around chat GPT, just as a journalist really focused on accuracy and sourcing and plagiarism and all of that gives me a little bit of concern. but I think it's a great starting point And if you're starting from a blank slate, at least you have something to build on.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely Okay. So content fuel framework comes out, the queen of buzz, the social media marketing world bestseller. Obviously, the speaking turns virtual, but you beat me to the punch with the next book. I'm still right in mind. So then I'm looking at Melanie and I'm like whoa, she's written another one, prove it. So what was the I'm assuming that part of prove it might have been a reaction to what happened during COVID, as my book is turning out to be as well. What brought you to write that book and how is it differentiated from content fuel framework?

Speaker 3:

So interesting. I had not actually considered it a response to the pandemic, but more so a response to the response of the first book. So what I found is that when folks were like, okay, now I have a hundred 200 ideas like where do I start? What do I focus on, what's most important for my business? And my answer was always some version of like what does your audience need to believe about you? Or what's the biggest gap between what you want your audience to believe and what they do believe, and then the content that kind of feeds that. So, really like, the concepts within prove it, really talking about how you can use the content as a tool to earn your audience trust. I think you're totally right that trust is definitely at an all time low and the pandemic and things like chat, gpt and AI have partially contributed to that that. We see just skepticism is on the rise and trust is on the downfall. So it seems like the right time to be talking about building audience trust as sort of our primary KPI.

Speaker 1:

So before we get to that, i want to put on the skeptics hat that says, melanie, we're spending all this money on content. What's the ROI of this? How do you respond to that CEO or the CMO? You're brought in by someone more junior and they are not into it yet. I'm assuming by now most are bought in, but there's always those outliers. So I'm just curious have you ever had that situation and how do you respond to that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, 100%. Well, i mean, sometimes, depending on the client, sometimes I'll be sassy a little bit and I'll say, well, what's the ROI of your social media? And they give an answer and I say, well, content is very similar in that regard, and content is what's fueling your social media.

Speaker 1:

Taking the Gary Vaynerchuk route. Huh, What's the ROI of your mom?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, exactly right. But I think more often I just allude to the fact that content as a product really seeps into everything we do. So we believe there's ROI of email, so we need content for that email. We believe in the ROI of social. We need content for social. We believe in the ROI of webinars and ebooks and all these other things, and we need content to live inside of those things. So it's less of a separate entity and more of a fuel for everything else that you're doing. that we already have proven ROI on. I know there are some folks out there who have done the studies and shown the ROI of specific content, but being that it's not my studies, i tend not to quote those things just to err on the side of my own expertise.

Speaker 1:

It really is the currency of digital marketing, isn't it? So I couldn't agree more. I want to talk. You had mentioned about Prove It and Trust as being this main KPI, and before this interview, you talked about understanding the importance of using content as evidence for business claims. So I actually have a. I'm a fractional CMO, so I'm a marketing consultant for a few companies. So one of my clients is a nutritional supplements brand, but they actually create all their products in conjunction with an R&D facility out of university, public university, right? So all of our language and messaging and content is all very scientific. That this is So I totally get what you're. I'm just curious when you're not in that where you need that scientific proof, you know why is that so important? And then how can a company where it's not life critical, it doesn't affect your health, you know? do they all need to be scientific or what is sort of the formula there?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so the vast majority of proof is actually not scientific, at least when we're talking about it. in terms of building trust through content, that's what I would call sort of documentation, is a type of proof where you're bringing in studies or you know reputable processes and kind of showing behind the scenes of how that technically is safe in this case. But there's lots of other ways that you can do that that don't involve science, studies, massive amounts of resources at all. So the first one is corroborating your claims is just looking to say who are the experts or witnesses of this claim that could back it up. So if you're talking about you know we deliver on time, you know, look to your past clients to talk about how you deliver on time, that's perfect, you know. that's adding proof, it's third party credibility adding to the pile. So experts and witnesses corroborating what you're saying is is a really good way to approach it, especially if you're starting out and you don't have a ton of resources to delve into the bigger, more scientific proof.

Speaker 1:

That makes a lot of sense And I suppose some of it is. You know, if you say you're on time, actually survey your customers, get the data. Nine of 10 customers say I don't know. Is that sort of one of the approaches?

Speaker 3:

It could be. Yeah, absolutely So. Right in the beginning of the book I mentioned like, hey, if you're lying, then like, this isn't going to work for you. This only works if you're actually delivering on these promises. I'm not going to help you prove this isn't going to help you prove things that aren't true.

Speaker 3:

But basically the process is looking at all the promises that you're making, the expectations that you're setting your guarantees, and saying, okay, what are those And are we providing adequate proof? And this comes from the world of journalism where we say show, don't tell. It's one thing to tell the audience something, it's another thing to show them, to let them kind of come to their own conclusion by putting forth that evidence. So it's that same kind of mindset of saying, okay, well, what is it that we're trying to tell our audience? that we deliver on time or we treat you like family, or you know that our product is gluten free. So how do we go about providing more details that they can see or hear or, you know, consume some other way? that would help them believe this and not have to just take our word for it.

Speaker 1:

So I see how that's part sort of content fuel framework in terms of ideation but also execution in making sure that the messaging is aligned with that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, i would say Prova is more of a strategic book in comparison. Content fuel framework is super, super tactical, like not a line of fluff, really just to help you walk through that process of idea generation, whereas Prova is more about the mindset. How do we select the content that's going to best suit our overall business goal, which either is, or should be, building this trusting relationship?

Speaker 1:

So it's not about I mean, obviously we think of traditional digital marketing concepts like SEO. It's not about like keywords, but it's about, if there are certain keywords that you talk about, that trust is important in order to build that relationship with prospects and with your customers, then you'll want to lean into those. But when you lean into them, you're not going to write some chat, gpt generated content, but it's going to be all about how to prove it. How do we, how do we build trust? How do we prove that we do what that keyword indicates we do? Is that sort of the mindset Exactly.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah. So it's less about SEO and ranking although certainly that should be part of your broader strategy as well But really around giving an example of sort of search. If you are perhaps the only one in your category, or one of few in your category, your competitive set that has one characteristic maybe that your products are made with recycled products. Right, you're more eco-friendly, then you might be looking to focus on some of those keywords to make sure that, if folks are looking for an eco-friendly or a green solution, they're going to come to you. As part of that, though, you're going to want to make sure that the content that contains those keywords is actually showing how you are green, eco-friendly, recycled like.

Speaker 3:

Show how that is true, because anyone can slap a keyword onto a product description. Anybody can pop into chat, gpt and write a blurb about how eco-friendly and how much you care about the earth, right? So folks are going to want to see that proof. Like show me the factory. Show me where you're getting these recycled products. Show me how many water bottles go into this particular product. Show me the proof.

Speaker 1:

And obviously it's not just textual. It could be video, it could be audio, all the senses right. However, you can show it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely, and so that's, I think, where Proovit and Content Field Framework can kind of feed into one another is. you know, proovit will help you figure out what are the claims that we're making that we need to back up. And then, if you're looking for a way to how could we back that up, then you've got Content Field Framework to come up with specific ideas.

Speaker 1:

I want to move on the content fuel framework in a segment. Content fuel framework just in concept seems very broad. Prove it should be as broad, because if content is important, trust should be important as well. I'm just curious though the reception of CMOs, CIOs, executives. I know that some absolutely buy into it, but I'm assuming that maybe not everybody buys into trust being that critical of a KPI or maybe I'm wrong What has been the feedback that you've gotten? Have you had to sort of evangelize trust as a KPI or prove its value to some that may not see it? Then how do you prove that value?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, i definitely practice what I preach and I've got plenty of data and experts that I can pull in quotes from Deloitte and studies that have been done about skepticism and consumer doubt and purchase likelihood and all those sorts of things.

Speaker 1:

You got the Edelman Trust Perometer right there, i do.

Speaker 3:

Yes, exactly, the Edelman Trust Perometer is featured prominently. There's plenty of evidence that I can bring that says you don't have to take my word for it. Look, there's all this data that shows trust is important. But oftentimes if I get any resistance, it's kind of hard to say you don't want your consumers to trust you. To be honest, i don't get a ton of pushback, but the question that I always, or the concept that I'll bring forth, is think of any KPI that is currently important to you. Is trust not necessary for that to happen? Because people don't buy from people they don't trust. They don't subscribe, they don't sign up, schedule a call, they don't do any of that with people they don't trust. So, while I don't know that trust is its own KPI, it is sort of the precursor to most of the other KPIs that we already know are important.

Speaker 1:

Makes a lot of sense. So yeah, like content is sort of part of everything you do.

Speaker 3:

Yep.

Speaker 1:

So should trust.

Speaker 3:

Exactly Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Let's now go back a few years. I know we did it in reverse order to content fuel framework And you know you had described it before our our livestream here as a system for coming up with content ideas wherever you need to and inspiration for new topics, angles and formats. It's a really eloquent summary of this. you know, obviously, major work of art that you did. What is, you know, i guess, one or two main takeaways for our listeners, our viewers? What are some of the key things that they can do if they're looking to create more engaging, creative and compelling content? What are one or two like major takeaways that you can talk about, you know, in depth, to to give our readers a sense of why they should buy your book and why it's important to implement. you know what you talk about.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So I mean a couple, couple of different things to hit on there. So when we look at content fuel framework, the sort of overarching theme is that most of the time we think of a content idea as, like this single object, like here you go, i have one idea for you, but actually it's made up of two separate things that come together. So you have the focus, which is what are we talking about? What's the message, the topic, the theme, whatever word you choose but what's our focus? And then you have the format, which is how are we going to bring this to life? How will people consume it? How will they experience it? So you have to actually ideate those two things separately And I think that's kind of a mindset shift.

Speaker 3:

But when you have that, it becomes a lot easier to come up with ideas because you're not trying to sort of eat the elephant in one bite. You know you're sort of taking it step by step. And so if you think of that that you have these two elements and then that you should always start with your focus and then determine which format is best to bring into life, When you say format, are you talking these traditional, you know video, audio, short form video, just the different?

Speaker 3:

yeah, OK, yeah yeah, so in the book I walk through like 10 different formats as a source of inspiration and they're all very platform agnostic. You know it's not with regards to how long it is. So you know video, live video, infographics, photos, maps, timelines, like there's lots of different options for you here of how you bring that content to life, and I think it's important to think about the merits of each of those and what they do well, what they don't do well, the advantages to using each particular format, so you can make that right selection.

Speaker 1:

So since you've wrote Content, feel Free. We've obviously seen the emergence and mainstream nature of short form video as the other type of major format. Maybe you covered that, maybe you didn't, but what would be your thoughts on what type of ideas are most relevant for that type of content? And we could talk about the differences to TikTok and Instagram. We also YouTube Shorts. I don't think we need to go that far, but you know, for those that are listening, like if you have this sort of idea, this tends to play better with this type of format.

Speaker 3:

So I wish that there was a one-size-fits-all answer, but I think it really depends on your audience, your industry and what it is that you're trying to sell, because the way you sell a service versus just a personal brand, versus a physical product, the way you sell B2B or B2C, it really can depend. What we do know is that live video and even short form video to some extent work really well for instructional content and for behind-the-scenes content. So walking people through a process or showing them you know whether it's how you do something to get ready with me we see all over the place the makeup looks we see all over the place. So kind of walking people through processes tends to work really well.

Speaker 1:

Gotcha. So you have the formats and then the idea. So I mean, that's really the gist of your book is working on this ideation. What is you know outside of playing around with chat GBT, and I think you'd probably recommend more creative. You know human ways of doing the ideation before that, But you know where do you think companies get stuck running out of content? ideas Is there in all of your work. Is there like one area or one reason? And then how can you know our listeners overcome that?

Speaker 3:

There's a couple, but I think they all kind of come under this same umbrella, which is, when you have a culture where people are afraid to be wrong or to be laughed at or to make a mistake, it is very difficult for there to be any sort of innovation or new suggestions or out of the box thinking, because people are afraid to move beyond those boundaries. So if you are feeling like you're not seeing a lot of innovation come out of your marketing team or your content team, that's something that, as a leader, i would be looking into and acknowledging. How am I empowering them to try new things that may or may not work? Or have I created such a rigid, results-focused experience that they are afraid to take risks, to try new things, to branch out to new formats and so on?

Speaker 1:

I'm curious along those lines. So I've seen, for instance, Microsoft has something called an autonomous video booth, So any employee that wants to tell their story can go into the booth, get audio video recorded. It could be shared by the company. What have you? Other companies have worked on employee advocacy training and they'll have like lunch and learns, like hey, come in every Friday at lunch, we'll help you with your LinkedIn profile. Take headshots, come up with content, ideas that you can share. Right, I'm curious is there a way to foster that sort of mindset? Do you know of any companies that are doing things to help foster that, so that they do get more innovation and more out of the box thinking out of their employees?

Speaker 3:

That's a really good question, Neil. That's what my next book is gonna be about.

Speaker 1:

Are you kidding me? That was gonna be my next question for you. Oh, that's awesome. okay, That's gonna preview then.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that is exactly what I'm working on now is trying to figure out how do we create that culture individually, within yourself if you're a solopreneur or with a team making sure that you are thinking of new ideas, that creativity is something that's welcomed and embraced, because, much like trust, is a precursor for most business KPIs.

Speaker 3:

Creativity, and that psychological safety that comes with it, is sort of the basis for most of the innovation and important work that most of us do. So there's a lot of different things. At the risk of going down a wormhole, because I'm living in studies and research right now, one of the biggest things is that psychological safety is making sure that you're fostering that community of like it's okay to make mistakes, it's okay to fail. It's why we see a lot of innovation come out of startups, because they do have that fail fast mentality. We try all kinds of things, we're scrappy, willing to experiment and take risk. You kind of gotta foster some of that same psychological safety so your employees aren't afraid to be fired or reprimanded or written up or whatever the case may be, for trying something new.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's really interesting. Can't wait to read that book And I think it talks a lot to. I was on a SEMrush webinar this morning and we were talking about the importance of data.

Speaker 1:

It was like the CMO round table, right, yeah, and I made the argument if you really wanna have a I know this goes I mean, this is a different field than what you're in terms of like content but if you really wanna have a data-driven culture, then everybody should be speaking that data-driven language. Decisions should be made based on the data. So if you expect that of everyone around you, and when someone asks you, hey, can we do this? If you say, well, what does the data tell us? If you instill that culture, it can happen. Right, and I'm thinking with your book as well. It's probably gonna start at the top, right, but in a similar way, there are activities, exercises, things that you could do to instill that culture, and I'm sure it's gonna be written in detail in the book, so can't wait to read that. It is so necessary. I'm thinking of. There have been other books about innovation, what have you? but not with that objective in mind. So that's gonna be awesome.

Speaker 3:

There's a little snippet. So for anyone who wants to try, one of the best things you can do is try random inspiration. So you have to have your objective first. We're trying to come up with content, ideas for our new campaign, our new product, this upcoming event. You have to have sort of your objective figured out.

Speaker 3:

But one of the best ways to experiment and be okay with big ideas is to create a rule that there's no feedback unless it's positive for the first portion of your brainstorm. And then you come back around. So you wanna do that divergent thinking, you wanna think differently, with that psychological safety, not afraid of having a crazy idea, a silly idea, and then you come around and you go through that list and call it down to what you think would actually work. Because if you are in that headspace of trying to come up with big new ideas, any sort of criticism, negativity here's why that won't work kind of tells everyone else in the room like don't speak up or you're gonna get swatted down to. So segmenting between this is our brainstorming time, this is our divergent thinking time, and then this is our convergent thinking time where we're gonna come back together and work through the options that we have.

Speaker 1:

Very cool, very exciting to see your journey really from the content to the bigger issue of trust or the bigger issue of everyone's real creativity and innovation. So when can we expect to? I assume you're still working on the manuscript, so there's no published date for it, right?

Speaker 3:

There is no published date yet. I would assume sometime in 2024, but that assumes that I stay on top of my deadlines.

Speaker 1:

I hear you. I hear you. Well, i was gonna ask you about what are your future plans? You've already responded to that. Are there any other things that you've done research on or that you're writing about, or just questions from speaking or clients? Yeah, talk about this topic of sort of content ideation and content marketing. Any further advice you can give the listeners?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, i think the one thing that is really important just no matter if you're again a solopreneur or you're on a team is you have to be willing to get things wrong, and I know that's very uncomfortable for a lot of us. But as these new platforms come out, as these new tools launch, there's a learning curve. It takes time to figure out how to create content that works really well on TikTok, or how to create content that you know how to use the right prompts for chat GPT. It's not gonna be 100% day one, and so as long as you're, as an individual, willing to not know everything for a little bit, and as a team or as an organization, willing to allow your people to not know everything, you're gonna get the absolute most out of those tools, much more so than someone who's kind of created this strict culture against failure.

Speaker 1:

Break things and move fast, right? Yep, exactly, i love the fact you're gonna talk about in the book the innovations that come from startups, where they I talk about this a lot because startups have no legacy, and when it comes to like digital marketing, there's no legacy at all. They can just go out and do anything they want. And if everybody had that sort of reset button that?

Speaker 3:

they could look every day right. Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's a freedom And I think it can be really powerful if we can hopefully help people figure out how to harness it.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely Well, melanie. You know I'm thinking back to my days of studying English and you know bigger's writing is concise and you have been just so concise in all of your answers today and our conversation, so thank you for providing us all that advice. Obviously, provid Content, fuel Framework, are available wherever fine books are sold. Where else can people go to learn more about you and engage with you?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so my website is storyfuelco, So storyfuel, just like contentfuelco, And that's where you can find everything about the books working with me, bringing me in to speak, or just find my social links if you wanna follow me wherever you'd like to hang out.

Speaker 1:

Awesome. Thank you so much, melanie, for breathing a fresh breath of air into this world of content and content marketing and digital marketing as a whole. So can't wait to get your next book and hopefully we'll be able to meet in person at a conference in the not so distant future.

Speaker 3:

I hope so.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that was a fun and really inspirational interview. I hope you got a lot out of that conversation, like I did, and, at a minimum, that you'll go out and check out her book's content, fuel framework If you haven't already bought it and her more recent book, Proof It. Speaking of books, did you know that I offer a number of free resources? A lot of these are eBooks on my own website. If you go to neilchafercom slash freebies that's F-R-E-E-B-I-E-S you'll be able to access all of the free resources that I have for you so that I can better serve you both, not only on the podcast, but off the podcast as well. Well, that is it for another exciting episode of the Your Digital Marketing Coach podcast. I'll look forward to serving you again next week. Until then, this is Your Digital Marketing Coach, Neil Schaefer, signing off.

Speaker 2:

You've been listening to Your Digital Marketing Coach. Questions, comments, requests, links go to podcastneilschafercom. Get the show notes to this and 200 plus podcast episodes at neilschafercom to tap into the 400 plus blog post that Neil has published to support your business. While you're there, check out Neil's Digital First Group Coaching Membership Community If you or your business needs a little helping hand. See you next time on Your Digital Marketing Coach.

Speaker 1:

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