Your Digital Marketing Coach with Neal Schaffer

11 Takeaways from Podcast Movement 2022

• Neal Schaffer • Episode 282

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I had an awesome time at the world's largest event dedicated to podcasters and podcasting for business: Podcast Movement 2022 in Dallas, Texas.

Since you are listening to this podcast, you already know how compelling a medium podcasting can be. But what are the newest trends and technology you should be aware of if you are a content creator or looking into tapping into podcasting for your business?

Look no further - just listen to my report and you'll feel as if you attended the event yourself!

Key Highlights

[02:23] Upcoming Marketing Conferences

[04:07] What I Learned At Podcast Movement 2022

[06:07] Success Is About Consistency

[06:51] Podcast Statistics

[08:38] 2 Best Ways to Promote Podcast

[14:11] It's All About Video

[16:14] Tiktok Takeaway

[18:15] What Do Successful Podcasters Do?

[19:21] Use Email With Your Podcast

[21:35] An Interesting Shift in Podcasting

[23:32] What Is Patreon?

[25:32] Another Trend in Podcasting

[28:29] Podcasting Is Special

[30:18] How to Contact Me For Podcasting Advice

Notable Quotes

  • In podcasting, success is really about consistency.
  • There's always this aspect that we need to be consistent for a period of time until we see the results. And podcasting is no different. But what I think it means for all of you if you've been thinking about a podcast, there's always never a better time. But you're never too late because most people just quit. So if you have ideas, and I urge you to map out your ideas for 10, 20, 30 episodes, and if you're going to interview people, who are those people are going to be map it out and implement.
  •  And I think going forward, you're going to hear a lot more of these ads on podcasts as more micro and nano influencer podcasters like myself, get into the action for whatever reason, but it was a reminder that advertising is really alive and well in podcasting.
  • It might be a great way if you're thinking of doing podcasting, but also want to increase the benefits of doing so is to think video from the start not as an afterthought. And I think that'll help you actually create better videos.
  • Leveraging your community as well, which might be the third different way to help get reviews shared on social media, whatever that specific call to action is. And whatever way you can creatively bring it up. So that it will really encourage, if not incentivize people to do that. 
  • Do you need to be everywhere? No. If you're able to be in multiple places, you can leverage that especially if you are a content creator.
  • I started podcasting as a content marketing initiative. But it has led me to develop a really, really personal relationship with you. Even though we've never met in person. 
  • Podcasting is a unique, human-centric, medium, unparalleled with any other medium out there in te

Learn More:

Neal Schaffer:

I was at Podcast Movement in Dallas last week. This is the largest global conference for podcasting. And I can't wait to share with you what I learned not just from a podcasting perspective, but from a marketing perspective on this next episode of The your digital marketing coach, podcast. Digital social media content, influencer marketing, blogging, podcasting, blogging, tick talking LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, SEO, SEM, PPC, email marketing. Whew. There's a lot to cover. Whether you're a marketing professional entrepreneur, or business owner, you need someone you can rely on for expert advice. Good thing you've got Neil, on your side, because Neal Schaffer is your digital digital marketing marketing coach, helping you grow your business with digital first marketing one episode at a time. This is your digital marketing coach. And this is Neal Schaffer. Hey, everybody, Neal Schaffer, here. I am your digital marketing coach, and welcome to my podcast. Yes, last week, I was in Dallas, Texas, for Podcast Movement. And I want to remind you that there are a lot of different conferences that are starting to pop up again, really fall in spring, our conference season. So I encourage you, if you're on the fence as to whether to go or not, from my perspective, as a professional as an expert, I feel the need to serve my clients and to serve my community by attending conferences. Now, my policy before until COVID was really only attending conferences that I spoke at, which I still prefer to do for obvious reasons. But I think that when you get to a certain point, you know, if you're big into YouTube, then you got to be at Vid Summit. If you're really into podcasting, you got to be a Podcast Movement, I think, you know, from not just an education perspective, or from a networking perspective with other people that are doing similar things, as well as networking with technology providers. I'm going to talk a little bit about that today. But it's the reason why I started going to podcasting movement. Last year, I went for the first time when it was in Nashville. And then this year, the second time in Dallas. I will say that next week, I'm going to be in Cleveland at Content Marketing World. I'll be speaking there. So if you plan on attending, please, please please let me know. I'd love to buy you a drink at least. And later on in the month I'm going to be going to Vid Summit which was founded by the one and only Derral Eve's who was just featured on this previous episode, which hopefully you enjoyed listening to as much as I enjoyed interviewing him. So really, in the fall here, you have the biggest podcast the biggest content marketing, although some might argue inbound is the biggest Content Marketing Conference. But that's really a corporate event sponsored by HubSpot Content Marketing World, yes, it's sponsored by Content Marketing Institute, but it's Joe Pulizzi. It's all about content marketing. And it really is in a class of its own and then Vid Summit. Obviously, if you're a YouTube creator, YouTube marketer YouTuber, that is the place you want to go to Network. And I'm really excited, this is going to be my first time going. So those in the fall are the three big conferences in the spring, obviously, we have a Social Media Marketing World. So if you could attend, if you can get a budget to attend all four of those conferences every year, I think you're going to be up to date with what's going on out there. But for those of you that couldn't go, you know, it's a reminder to me that I'm blessed to be able to attend these conferences, whether the speak or be able to fly and you know, enjoy the event. So at a minimum, I thought it would be really cool to share with you what I learned. This podcast episode also gives me the chance to really put in the notes, my takeaways from the conference in the form of a podcast that I can share with you all. So from a utilitarian perspective, this podcast is going to serve me as much as it serves you. But without further ado, let's jump right into what I learned at Podcast Movement. 2022. So the first thing is that conferences are back, sort of. So obviously, we're still in the midst of COVID Although it is getting weaker, and the number of infections seems to be slightly decreasing, the number of deaths is definitely significantly decreased. We still have areas of the world where they're still on lockdown. I'm speaking specifically of China, which was the absolute opposite that weren't on lockdown while we were in lockdown here in the United States. So it's interesting how the tables have turned over time. But there are still people that wear masks going to the conference. As you see inside supermarkets and even walking outside here in Irvine, California. There's still a lot of people that are wearing masks. I will say that Podcast Movement as an example of a conference was back in In terms of the size of the venue, the number of exhibitors, the amount of speakers, the only thing missing, were the amount of attendees. And don't get me wrong, there were definitely a lot of attendees there. But it was not a packed house. Which means and if you go to a lot of conferences, it will seem visibly like there's fewer people there, which means it gives you a chance to actually go up and speak and introduce yourself to the speakers, and to get to know the other attendees a little bit more. So I sort of think it's a blessing. And I encourage you to if you're worried about, you know, things, the quality of the conference is still there, it's just the number of people attending are fewer. And to me, that is a plus. So that was the first takeaway, what's at conferences are back sort of, but I think it's a plus. And I encourage you if you're on the sideline, to go out to conferences that you want to attend, and don't be afraid of that it's going to be of inferior quality. Let's put it that way. All right, let's move on to my takeaway number two, which is of similar theme in marketing in general. But in podcasting, success is really about consistency. And I think Derral Eve's talked about those with YouTube as well. On every social network, we talked about this. But here's the thing about podcasting 80% of podcasts die, before they get to the 10th episode, which is pretty amazing. People just start and then they stop, I don't know, if they're expecting to make a million dollars, or they're expecting to get flooded with interview requests, or I don't know what it is. But they start and they stop, you need to have a very, very long term view, not just podcasts about anything in marketing, because guess what, it takes time to build like no interest digitally, as it does in analog. Now, what's also interesting, according to Buzzsprout, I was really excited to see them on stage, the people whose voices I hear on their podcast and who I see in the YouTube videos, we're doing a panel discussion, this is the average Buzzsprout podcaster gets 29 downloads per episode. So maybe you start you only get a few downloads you stop, but 29 per episode is the average, I'm honored that there are more than 29 of you that are downloaded each my episodes. But if you stick with podcasting for a year, according to Buzzsprout data, the chances are high that you will get into the top 25% of podcasts by downloads per episode. That's really powerful. Now in YouTube, we talk about you need to have 50 or 100 videos, until YouTube really figures out how to you know rank you and give you more video views. With Google, we often say hey, you need to have 50 blog posts up there in order to get indexed and to show Google your authority. So there's always this aspect that we need to be consistent for a period of time until we see the results. And podcasting is no different. But what I think it means for all of you is, if you've been thinking about a podcast, there's always never a better time. But you're never too late because most people just quit. So if you have ideas, and I urge you to map out your ideas for 1020 30 episodes, and if you're going to interview people, who are those people are going to be map it out and implement. And I think that you can be more successful than you might have thought, even at 29 views per episode. How many people come to your website to see every new blog posts you have? I mean, I don't know. But let's compare apples and apples, right. And we're not even comparing apples and apples. Because with the podcast, you're obviously creating a much more intimate relationship than you are with just a blog post because the audio format is just more intimate than a written format. All right, I'll get off my highchair, podcasting there. So takeaway number three. And this is something that really hasn't changed since I went to Podcast Movement last year, which is the two best ways to promote your podcast. And I think this is going to explain a lot if because you listen to podcasts, you listen to my podcasts. And if you're into podcasting, there's really two ways that I think are the best ways to promote a podcast. And I'm just going to be a third way in another takeaway. But the two that I keep on hearing, on and on are number one advertising. Now, you may not think of advertising a YouTube channel or a social media profile. Above and beyond maybe doing a boost like Twitter, you can try to get people to like your profile, but on all the other networks. It's really about boosting a post. Well, advertising on podcasting is actually pretty mainstream Jordan Harbinger one of the most famous podcasters out there, he's swears by this, that by advertising in other podcasts, your advertising and people that are already listening to podcast da versus a Facebook ad or a Google Ad where the other person might not even be a podcast subscriber. They might not even have a podcast listening out. They may not even know how to download an episode. For instance, I'm taking it to the extreme there, but I think you get the point. So by advertising in other people's podcasts, If you're already preaching to the choir, the beautiful thing is, there are more and more channels that are allowing you to do this sort of advertising. I've experimented with this before, there are sites like overcast and podcast junkie, these are two podcast apps that allow for advertisements. And it can be quite costly, like $10 to $30 per new subscriber, in my experience, I've gotten below 10 before, but it's gonna cost you quite a bit. The beautiful thing though, is that they have pretty much made it easy to subscribe to your podcast, with a click of a button. So now they may not stay with your podcast, they may unsubscribe, but there is a direct ROI associated. And I have seen the boost and downloads from those apps when I have advertising with them. Now there are other apps that you can advertise that are less self serve, and more of enterprise like 1000 $2,000 or more a month. But what's really interesting is that Buzzsprout and now pod bean, these are two podcast hosts, and I'm with Buzzsprout are now offering you the ability to advertise to their network of podcasters. And on the other side, they've given the their podcasters like myself, the ability to publish advertisements and make a little bit of money. I have done this off and on you might have been lucky enough to hear. I've had Pat Flynn podcast ad I've had other ads as well. And that's what is happening there. And I think going forward, you're going to hear a lot more of these ads on podcasts as more micro and nano influencer podcasters like myself, get into the action for whatever reason, but it was a reminder that advertising is really alive and well in podcasting. Although you may not think it as you may think it's just for big players. It has now been democratized. And really it's for everybody. So the second way to promote your podcast and I think this explains a lot of why you might hear some people guest on a lot of different podcasts Me included when I came up with the age of influence is to guest on other podcasts, I'd say John Lee Dumas is someone who always talks about setting aside a certain amount of time every day or every week, to make sure that he appears on a lot of different podcasts. And once again, you're preaching to the choir when you're on a podcast, because listeners are already subscribing the podcast, they understand how they work, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So for those podcasters listening, or for those people that want to start a podcast, begin with this or begin using this advice, and I think it will also accelerate things. I also like the idea that there were some independent podcasters on stage who did not have a large audience yet have been able to achieve amazing things was to really be specific with your call to action. Now I'm often guilty. Hey, write me review. Hey, if you're interested, email me, Hey, do this do that. Really just have one strategic call to action, just like you would in marketing. What I liked about the approach of these podcasters was they said, for instance, hey, we just published our 100th episode, we would really like to be able to say we have a review per episode, or 100 reviews, can you help us get to that goal. And I think that's a really creative but also effective. CTA in fact, on that almost 300 episodes, and I don't even have a fraction of that reviewed. So I'm actually quite envious, that they were able to do that. But nevertheless, it is a reminder, everything marketing, to be very specific with your CTA or call to action. But nevertheless, I thought that was also related to this best way to promote your podcast. Obviously leveraging your community as well, which might be the third different way to help get reviews shared on social media, whatever that specific call to action is. And whatever way you can creatively bring it up. So that it will really encourage, if not incentivize people to do that. So great reminder there. All right. Number four, the buzz at Podcast Movement really wasn't about podcasting. It was all about video. And in 2021 I think the gentleman's name is Todd Webster from Edison Research went on stage and said, Hey, did you know that one of the top three ways in which people find out about podcasts according to their research data is YouTube that people will listen to podcasts on YouTube. I didn't believe it either. But the data more and more suggests this. And more and more podcasters are finding success using video not just in YouTube, but actually on Tik Tok as well. Now I think a lot of podcasters use video across social media. I do as well not for my PA guest interviews per se. But according to Tom Schwab, who is the CEO of interview valet one of the great minds out there in terms of podcasting, they have an annual report called the state of podcast interviews. This is from their 2022 edition, they found that 74% of podcasts are already including video, I'm one of the 26% who don't, I may need to do something about that. But that live streaming was only at 5.6%. So very, very interesting. Probably people are recording interviews and repurposing them, when they could be doing the same, adding a livestream component. So this is still something relatively new, but expanding rapidly. And it might be a great way if you're thinking of doing podcasting, but also want to increase the benefits of doing so is to think video from the start not as an afterthought. And I think that'll help you actually create better videos. I think a lot of these podcasters that are doing videos are really creating these little snippet portions of their podcast, that before they even start recording. They already know they're going to snip those into separate video reels or episodes or whatever it might be. So everybody was talking about video, obviously a lot of talk about tick tock and number five was tick tock the takeaway one podcaster. In particular, her name is Gabby Ianniello. She has a podcast called the corporate quitter. And she was a panelist in one of these panel presentations and panel presentations are always really interesting, because there's always one person that really resonates with you over the other people. And in this particular panel, Gabby really resonated with me. She now has 46,000 followers on Tiktok. And almost every episode is a little tick tock snippet. And the call to action is to listen to the podcast for more, and the link actually goes to her podcast. Now, in this presentation or I should say panel discussion. She said that her conversion rate from Tik Tok to a podcast listener is 56%. And as a marketer, I was sort of blown away by that number. And I waited in line until after she was done to be able to ask her how she measured that. And she was really savvy, she actually has a dedicated landing page using LeadPages, which then allows people to click on the podcast app of their choice in order to listen to her podcast. So she was able to see how many clicks came from tick tock. And then how many of those actually converted by doing one more click into a specific podcast app. And then she could also sort of see where her tick tock followers, what podcast app they listen to her on. So really, really smart marketing from Gabby there. But that was really impressive that people are going from Tik Tok, to listen to podcasts, or to watch videos or to go somewhere else. It really all comes down to your content, your personality, and the call to action. So Tiktok is obviously the place to be we know that from a social media perspective. But even outside of social media from a podcasting perspective, a lot of people were talking about it as well. Number six on that note podcasters, or the successful ones are becoming more omni channel marketers. In other words, they're not just focusing on podcasting. They're doing video, they're doing Tik Tok. They're doing YouTube, they're doing other social media. And those are the ones that are really successful. In fact, as content creators, they're also able to bundle in other platforms above and beyond their podcast when companies want to sponsor them, or when companies want to pay for an ad. And it really is a reminder that it was the Buzzsprout panel actually brought this up but the best way to market your show is to be agile. They said back in 2008 Believe it or not, it was YouTube. Today it is tick tock can you find a way to promote yourself on tick tock promote your ideas, your perspective, while also including a call to action to the podcast? brilliant advice. Become the omni channel marketer? Do you need to be everywhere? No. If you're able to be in multiple places, you can leverage that especially if you are a content creator. Alright, number seven, using email with your podcasting, this was not talked about enough, right. But it's sort of similar how I hear a lot of YouTubers that just rely on the partner ad revenue from YouTube. And when their content doesn't show up in search results as much when they get fewer and fewer views of the videos. They're sort of screwed because they weren't doing omni channel marketing. And they didn't have a list where they could directly communicate with their fans and promote their wares to so What really excited me was a technology provider. And for those of you that follow me on social media, you might also know they're the one ones who actually gifted me a ticket to attend Podcast Movement for which I'm very thankful for. They are the email marketing folks over at Aweber. Aweber has been around a long time. But there is a great group of young people there that are really invigorating a new energy into the platform. And most importantly, for us new functionality, one of the things they now have is the ability to go from RSS of a podcast feed to email. Now, it sounds easy, but believe it or not, this is something that every email provider that I have had until now was not able to do. So Aweber has been a sponsor, a podcast movements, they're the only email marketing tool that are a provider. And they've really gone all in listening to podcasters and creating more functionality that supports them. And I'm really excited about this, because I would love to be able to give you the opportunity to get updated. Whenever I have a new podcast episode via email, it might be a convenience for you as well, so that you never miss an episode, or you can decide, well, I'm not interested in that episode, I'm gonna wait for the next one to come out. And this will give you the ability to do that. So I can't wait to start implementing this. And really to have a multiple email provider email marketing strategy between ConvertKit for a lot of email, and a Weber for automated email that is RSS base. So stay tuned for more info on that. But I'm really excited about the potential there. And if you're looking for a new email provider, you may want to check out a Weber as well. All right, that brings us to number eight. Now, there has been an interesting shift in podcasting, where we have more and more podcasters. And more and more than want to make more money. And I'm going to go into probably the number one way in which they make money next. But number eight is really interesting, because there is a new podcasting platform out there that has a very new business model. And the idea is, hey, you can pay $12 a month, which is what I pay a Buzzsprout to publish, or I should say to have them host my podcast there. Or you can go to a place that is built for monetization, that will host your podcast for free. So this is something very new that I have yet to see really in podcasting, but they're basically saying, hey, we want to host more podcasts because that's gonna give us more access to more podcasts, to deeper analytics, and to be able to provide advertisers better products to monetize. And if we bring on podcasters to come in for free with the hopes of getting monetized, then it is a win win win for the podcast company or I should say the podcast host, the podcaster. And the advertiser, the name of the platform doing this that there was a lot of buzz around and a lot of podcasters were using, including Gabi who I just talked about is red circle, they've literally came out of nowhere. I suppose they've been around for a little while, but they really made a buzz at podcasts moving 2022 If you had hopes of monetizing your podcast, why not begin with a platform that is built for that now obviously, you need to have a certain amount of downloads in order to get monetized. But even if you don't get there, I checked Gabby, she showed me on her iPhone, the analytical platform that it had, and it looks really legit. I am considering moving from Buzzsprout over there as we speak as one of my to do items from the Podcast Movement, but definitely something to check out red circle. Alright, number nine, I mentioned that this is probably the most popular monetization model outside of advertising, which you really need a lot of downloads in order to be successful at is Patreon. And it's the fact that almost every podcaster up there on stage said they had a Patreon and that was a major way in which they got contributions from their listeners to their podcast. Patreon was a big sponsor podcast moving 22. I took a picture with it but they had a quote on their booth. It said membership is the future. We all know that membership is huge. I started my own membership community Digital First, a platform circle.sl has come out of nowhere and is fueling the membership communities for people like Pat Flynn and Brendon Burchard and Patreon. Basically, it's just the easiest way to get set up to make money now, it's interesting because as I was listening to everybody talking, I realized that you can set different tiers on Patreon. And in fact, if I wanted to, I could move my entire digital first community over to Patreon and then include things like hey for for $1 You know, I'll give you a shout out or give your podcast a shout out to my podcast, give little things like that, or you know, mention you in a blog post I don't know but give little rewards to my listeners for listening to my podcast for a very, very small amount of money. So Patreon is not just about hey, you know tipped me$10 It can be used for Anything you want to use it for. And it's become such a default that people are used to supporting content creators through Patreon. So it's really made me rethink about my own monetization model. And I'm gonna look at actually, potentially moving my digital first to Patreon, but also offering other tiers, and maybe, you know, a really private community for all of you so that we can all get to know each other a little bit better. And even if you're not in my community, I can still help you or other people in this listener community can help you with the questions that you have. All right, number 10. I mentioned one of the benefits of going to conferences is to be able to network. And while you network with other content creators and other businesses and other industry peers, you can also network with technology providers, I mentioned this relationship I had with the folks from AWeber that I'm really thankful for. Well, there is another trend that was really clear, it was mentioned in a few of the speeches, but also from the technology providers there is that Zoom, as a way to record podcasts is very 2021. And I am a user of zooms record my podcast, because I've been told there's not that much of a difference in audio. Now, the problem with using zoom, as a way to record a podcast is it's been recorded in the app, and it relies on network speed. And that's why if you listen to a zoom interview, sometimes you have these pings that Zoom does when the network speed slows down in an attempt to increase the network speed. And it ends up with a poor connection, a poor quality audio recording. So the new generation of audio recorders, they are recording locally saving on your device, there is no compression, and they are uploading to the cloud, as opposed to saving in the app. You might have heard of some of these apps that I think the two big ones are riverside.fm and squad cast. Now Zen caster is another one they started audio only. Riverside started audio only, I believe, but they now offer video and squad cast has always had video, but they've recently added higher audio quality. So actually, I started out this podcast early on with squad cast. And I know that Riverside is one that I've been a been interviewed on and has very, very high audio quality as well. Well, I found out about a new company. They are a startup and they're trying to make the user interface as easy as possible for anybody both the podcaster. And the interviewer. What I was really excited about is the guy who developed it, he developed it two years ago. He is a full time employee at a fortune 500 company. He is doing this as a side hustle. But he is also involved in technology. And he has been able to create something which I am really attracted to, which I think might be better than these other two technologies I talked about. It's still early days, but I urge you to check it out. It is called Boom caster, I plan to give them a trial and record my next interview on it. I'll let you know when that publishes, it's probably not going to be for another month or two. But boom, Castor, B O M CAS t er, they are just starting out. But this is one small business that I would love to support and really get in on the ground floor to help support them. They have a really cool, easy to understand and very friendly business model as well. So definitely check them out if you're a podcaster or if you want to get into podcasting. All right. Finally, podcasting movement. My takeaway number 11 Is that podcasting is very special. I started podcasting as a content marketing initiative. But it has led me to develop a really, really personal relationship with you. Even though we've never met in person. Now I do try to meet all of my listeners in person, when they reach out to me. I have gotten some clients in podcasting, et cetera, et cetera. But podcasting is a unique, human centric, medium, unparalleled with any other medium out there in terms of marketing, to allow you to connect with people over the broadest category of things. There were storytellers there that were podcasters that just do audio drama, horror fiction. True Crime is huge. There were a number of podcasters there, that of true crime shows, there was someone speaking on behalf of a college campus safety show. And I know that there are tiktoks and YouTube videos that you might find, but nothing like someone that has 100 episodes of a true crime podcast. And I don't think you're gonna find many YouTubers that have that many episodes have that niche of a thing. It is the most human it is the broadest. And I think for a lot of people, it might just be the best way to start being a content creator, especially if you're a good storyteller. And for brands out there, there are more brands doing branded podcasts, and it does give you the ability to connect with influencers, to humanize your brand. And as an employer branding initiative, it can be huge as well. So, you know, whenever I record a podcast, I always think about you and I always think about what can I talk about thought that will provide more value to you understanding that you're a mix of corporate marketers, business owners and entrepreneurs. The best way I can help you is if you let me know. Hey, Neil, I'd like to hear more about this, or hey, Neil, you're doing great. Keep, you know publishing, keep doing what you're doing. Any little bit of advice that you can provide me, I'd be really grateful for, you can just email me, go to my website, Neal schaffer.com/contact, or just email me at Neal at Neal schaffer.com. I'd really like to hear from you. And this is not my podcast. It's your podcast, and I really want to serve you the best I can. And that is my call to action for this episode of The your digital marketing coach podcast. I want to thank you again for being a loyal listener. If you're a new listener, I really hope that you'll press that subscribe button. I am 50% solo 50% interview, got some great interviews coming up. You're also going to hear my reports from Content Marketing World and Vid Summit. Those are both coming up later this month. I'm also going to be going to Adobe MAX as an Adobe brand ambassador, that's an October and I'm hoping to go to analyticals b2b Influencer Marketing Conference, the first ever it's going to be in London in November. So stay tuned, I am here to deliver to you to provide you value to make your life visa vie digital content influence of social media marketing just a little bit more easier, a little bit more effective and help you see the money a little bit sooner. All right, everybody, as I like to remind you keep your eyes fixed on the goal. And I'll see you on this next episode of this podcast. This is your digital marketing coach Neal Schaffer signing off. You've been listening to your digital marketing coach, questions, comments, requests, links, go to podcast dot Neal schaffer.com. Get the show notes to this and 200 plus podcast episodes and Neal schaffer.com to tap into the 400 Plus blog post that Neil has published to support your business. While you're there, check out Neil's Digital First group coaching membership community if you or your business needs a little helping hand. See you next time on your digital marketing coach.