Your Digital Marketing Coach with Neal Schaffer

Navigating the Web: A Visually Impaired Creator's Insights into Digital Inclusivity

• Neal Schaffer • Episode 369

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Meet Mellissa Green, also known as "Uniquely Abled," whose journey into content creation was fueled by her passion for podcasts and the need to stay connected during the COVID-19 pandemic. Mellissa's story is a powerful testament to resilience and the role digital platforms play in bridging gaps for those with impairments. This episode sheds light on the importance of fostering better understanding and accessibility in the digital world, emphasizing the real-life impact of inclusive practices.

We dive deep into the critical importance of digital accessibility, highlighting the ongoing challenges faced by individuals using screen readers like JAWS. Hear Mellissa's candid accounts of navigating various platforms, from the frustrations with inaccessible sites like Facebook to the praise for more accessible ones like LinkedIn and Twitter. We also explore the broader implications of creating inclusive digital spaces, emphasizing both the ethical and economic incentives for businesses to prioritize accessibility. Tune in to understand why ensuring digital content is accessible to all is not just good business but a fundamental right.

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Speaker 1:

In today's digital world, accessibility is not just a feature, it is a necessity. But how often do we consider the barriers faced by content creators and consumers and social media users with disabilities? Enter the insightful world of Melissa Green, a visually impaired content maven who is unlocking the secrets of digital accessibility for all of us. Content maven who is unlocking the secrets of digital accessibility for all of us, from the mishaps of screen readers to the nuances of AI and content creation. Melissa's journey challenges us to rethink our online spaces, learn the do's and don'ts of inclusive digital environments and discover how embracing accessibility can unlock untapped markets and innovation in our businesses. This is a conversation that will transform not just your digital strategy, but also your perspective on the power of inclusive content creation. So stay tuned to this next episode of the your Digital Marketing Coach podcast.

Speaker 2:

Digital social media content, influencer marketing, blogging, podcasting, vlogging, tiktoking, linkedin, twitter, facebook, instagram, youtube, seo, sem, ppc, email marketing there's a lot to cover. Whether you're a marketing professional, entrepreneur or business owner, you need someone you can rely on for expert advice. Good thing you've got Neil on your side, because Neil Schaefer is your digital marketing coach, helping you grow your business with digital first marketing, one episode at a time. This is your digital marketing coach and this is Neil Schaefer is your digital marketing coach, and this is Neil Schafer.

Speaker 1:

Hey everybody, this is Neil Schafer, your digital marketing coach, and welcome to episode number 369 of this podcast. Before we get to today's interview, I always like to go over the industry news as well as my personal news. So in industry news, if you talk to a lot of people about AI news, so in industry news, if you talk to a lot of people about AI, I'm going to guess that, in addition to ChatGPT, you are slowly hearing more and more about a competitor called Claude. Claude is an AI tool that is put out by a company called Anthropic that Amazon has actually heavily invested in, and their latest upgrade, which is version 3.5, sonnet, seems to be winning over a lot of people. The free version seems to be as good as ChachiBT's paid version, but, more importantly, it seems to have a more conversational, human tone when you use it. I have been talking about testing out Claude. I've yet to do it myself, but every time I talk to another expert who says, hey, have you tried Cloud Gets me one step further. So that is something that, if you are using AI tools, if you're using ChatGPT now, you can A-B test, see what it's like with Cloud. The distinction really seems to be that ChatGPT is more for, like, business type copy, whereas Cloud is more of that human or even people facing content. So something to consider. If you've tried it out, if you've compared, I'd love to hear from you and maybe that's another podcast episode I need to do of actually comparing these two technologies.

Speaker 1:

Also, in the SEO world, google has ended continuous scroll SERP, so you used to be able to scroll and if you kept scrolling, you'd see continuous results. Before that, google always had these pages. We say we want to appear on page one of the search results because they limited each page to 10 results. Well, now they've basically gone back to that and there's a lot of people that are trying to read a lot of different things into it. When I do searches on Google these days, I'm finding that more and more pages don't have those generative AI search results, and there was also just a tweet the other day where some people from Google apologized saying, hey, we make mistakes too. So I think that Google is really in the middle of doing a lot of soul searching and maybe they found that they're losing market share. Maybe they found that the people that are on the platform aren't clicking on as many ads as they used to do. Whatever it is, I don't think the verdict is in on what is going on there. So definitely some area of news that I think there's going to be a lot of movement on over the next few weeks, if not few months, but definitely something to keep your eye on.

Speaker 1:

And every social network is fighting for attention, and Pinterest is always one of those that has a very, very popular crowd. Doesn't have the amount of users that an Instagrammer or a TikTok has, obviously, but it still has its heavy users. And now they have introduced a way to transform a board into a video inspired by Gen Z trends. So still a big fan of Pinterest. Actually, pinterest, because of the number of people using the social network, formerly known as Twitter, has gone down. I'm finding Pinterest is now a solid number one in referring social traffic to my website, neilschafercom. So if you haven't looked at Pinterest recently, well, this is another reason to look at Pinterest. So those are the things that I have my eye on in the industry that I want to report back to you on From a personal perspective.

Speaker 1:

Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, you are on my newsletter. If you are not, please go to neilschafercom slash newsletter where, just a few days ago, I announced my fifth book, which is going to be called Digital Threads the small business and entrepreneur digital first marketing playbook. So ecstatic about this book, I've sort of teased you about it over the last several weeks. I am going to be launching this on Kickstarter and now I have a pre-launch campaign up on Kickstarter, meaning that if you sign up, you will be informed when the Kickstarter launches, which is important because on the first 24 hours I'm going to have a lot of special deals, certain things you can only get during those first 24 hours, as well as a lot of discounts. So the first step since a lot of people say, neil, how can I support you, how can I get my hands in your book the first step is to go to neilschafercom slash Kickstarter Now. If you are already on my newsletter, you would have gotten this on Friday, june 28th, but if not, I detail how I am launching a launch team for my book and I'm gonna be giving a lot of value to those that join my team and I have a few asks. And really the first step in joining, or potentially joining, that team is to sign up for the updates for the pre-launch campaign. So make sure you go to neilschafercom slash Kickstarter. If you go to any one of my social profiles, you should see the link in my profile. You know, when you want to promote something, you want to promote it everywhere, including this podcast. So I look forward to welcome you in my street team, but at least I want to make sure that you have the option. By signing up to that list for the prelaunch, you are not committing to funding or buying any copies of the book. It is just a sign of interest. But since you know the way that algorithms work, it is a crucial step in letting the Kickstarter algorithm know that there is a lot of demand for this book and if they see that, they will introduce my book to more of their backers, thus introducing digital threads to a lot larger audience. So that is why I have that ask and there's going to be another ask, and if you read that newsletter, you will understand what it is. If you didn't and you're interested, just make sure you sign up at neilschafercom slash Kickstarter and you'll get all the information about what that entails.

Speaker 1:

All right, so today's interview is with a very special guest, melissa Green.

Speaker 1:

Melissa is a pen name for someone that has been in my digital first mastermind since day one.

Speaker 1:

She is one of my precious founding members.

Speaker 1:

Melissa is also someone who, I believe, at about six months, went completely blind. So this is a content creator that works with screen readers and you'll learn a lot about them during this episode who is launching a podcast, launching a YouTube channel, writing books, doing amazing things and really with this mission of not only informing those people that don't have to live with what she has to live with what it's like and the benefits for businesses to actually understand that, but also for other people, and she calls her social media handles uniquely abled for all those that also have unique talents to really talk more about them, bring them out into the world, serve other people, and she is doing an amazing job of doing that, and it's been amazing to see her grow. So I'm really excited and honored that she is on the podcast today, because I have learned a heck of a lot about digital accessibility through her, and I think you're going to learn a lot as well. So I also think that you're just going to applaud Melissa on everything she's done until now and on her future plan. So, without further ado.

Speaker 1:

Here is my interview with Melissa Green.

Speaker 2:

You're listening to your Digital Marketing Coach. This is Neil Schaefer.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to another live stream edition of the your Digital Marketing Coach podcast. So it was back in the days of the coronavirus pandemic, when I was on Twitter as I normally am and I still prefer to call Twitter and there was someone who was tweeting at me asking about my new book, the Age of Influence, which was new at the time, and she was asking you know, is there an audio book available? And I said, absolutely, there is an audio book available. And you know, she listened to the audio book and we kept in touch and then, when I launched my digital first mastermind community, she was one of my founding members and in her words, she felt that she needed to represent those people that were uniquely abled.

Speaker 1:

Now, my guest today, melissa Green she's also known as uniquely abled is someone that has 100% visual impairment, yet she is amazing at being a content creator, a fiction writer, creating audio greeting cards and also working on the digital accessibility side.

Speaker 1:

I know that she's currently in training on that and, in fact, originally, we wanted to use StreamYard to well. I wanted to use StreamYard to live stream this broadcast to YouTube, facebook, linkedin, like I normally do, but we were unable to do that because Melissa was able to log on to StreamYard, but she was unable to stop her video, whereas on Zoom she was able to do that. So that, I think, gives you sort of an introduction to the world that Melissa and the millions, if not tens of millions, of other people with various impairments face on a daily basis in our digital first world. So I thought it would be a great idea to have Melissa come on the show and, you know, let us better understand her world so that we can make a better digital world for everybody. So, melissa, welcome to the show. Hi, hopefully I got that story right.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you did, and I don't know if I reviewed that audio book, but it was an awesome listen.

Speaker 1:

Thank you. Well, you know, in all disclaimer I was not the voice actor for that, it was another voice professional. But yes, he is excellent, has actually done some audio narration for some bestselling fiction. So yeah, I knew I was in good hands.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I've heard him narrate another book and he does really good. I'm jealous.

Speaker 1:

Well, you know, going forward, I do plan to narrate my own book. So sorry about that, but there is a business model. But that was published under HarperCollins leadership and they were the ones who said you know what, let us use a voiceover. And it was coronavirus. You know the pandemic and hard to get into a studio and everything. So, melissa, I guess let's just get started with your journey. And you know, I believe you're a content creator like all of us, yet you are completely visually impaired. So what initially sparked your passion for content creation, despite the challenges that you face, I mean very, very brave, very passionate to have gotten this far. So you know how did it all start?

Speaker 3:

I guess I started listening to podcasts. Like you know, I am a fan of Joanna Penn and your podcast too, which I need to get back to listening to and of course, since then I've subscribed to a bunch of other different podcasts. So I started listening to podcasts and then COVID took off and I was like I guess I need to do a podcast too. I couldn't have my face-to-face meetings with my support group or anything. We couldn't do that. At the time I was working with DJ Ability, who actually had a sister who's deaf.

Speaker 3:

Her sister is no longer with us, but I'm sorry to hear that yeah, I think her sister had other health challenges too, so, but, um, she had a sister who was deaf and so she is, as they would say in my training course, an accessibility champion, and so we kind of started doing some things together. I was doing some brief interning with her for a while, started kind of helping her with her, her magazine that she and her sister started, uh, some years back. I never did get a chance to meet her sister, but anyway, um, you know, and I guess my thing as far as it's like people who don't know someone with a disability, they don't want to, they don't want unless you know someone with a disability, or like in your case, you met me and we're like well, let's continue the conversation and we're like oh no, I don't want to, you know.

Speaker 1:

It's a long conversation.

Speaker 3:

Yeah right, it's a long conversation. Yeah right, but a lot of people who don't communicate, who don't know someone with a disability or they don't have a disability themselves, they, they have a lot of stereotypes and we literally just learned about, uh, different models of, like, the different models dealing with disabilities and it was really interesting stuff that we just learned about last week in the training course that I'm taking what's really interesting.

Speaker 1:

I mean you spoke of a few things here, that the power of podcasts, because you do. You know I'm a big fan of Joanna Pan, as you know. I know they were both big fans of Pat Flynn as well. Yeah, thank you for the reminder. I have been a little bit more infrequent in my recording a podcast as I try to finish my book, so thank you for that reminder. But the power of podcasts to inspire you to want to start your own, and especially you know the pandemic.

Speaker 1:

I mean the pandemic affected us all in very different ways, but it sounds like there was, there was a positive, which is it inspired you to create this podcast, that you can keep in touch with people that you weren't able to physically meet at the time well, I mean that.

Speaker 3:

And then I just wanted I realized you know I started a podcast and I'm like, okay, everybody seems to be having this podcast. I guess I need to join on the bandwagon and join the people before a podcast becomes like Google Plus, you know.

Speaker 1:

Yep yep Back in the day. So what is your typical workflow for creating content and I guess we'll focus on the podcast, because I think that's your main focus right now what tools and assistive technologies do you rely on and I know that this is going to sound like you know Chinese to a lot of people listening. I obviously have learned a lot from you being in our group, but you know what does that look like from your perspective. When you record a podcast, what is the process that you need to go through?

Speaker 3:

So I have a yeah, it is going to sound like foreign language to a lot of people, and you know, it's just really interesting because, of course, in our world, because we use screen readers and this, that and the other and all this stuff and tried to tell him that she was visually impaired and he had no clue what she was talking about. So she eventually had to say, well, sir, I'm blind, I can't see. So it's like we use this language and we just think everybody knows what we're talking about and when we start saying we use screen readers and this, that and the other, I can't tell when they're looking at me. Weird, you know, right. So I use a screen reader, which one of these days I'll have to let you listen to it. I mean, I have it set for a human-like voice so that it doesn't sound like a robot. They do have human-like voices, so I'll have to let you all listen to what it sounds like.

Speaker 3:

But I use a screen reader and then I have to, depending on the platform. I have to use a platform that is, for the most part, accessible. So I found this host Blueberry, which you know has been in the podcasting space since the beginning, and I've actually listened to the guy who started the whole the blueberry thing. Um, I listened to him on podcast and you know, at first I was working with Pinecast and I mean they were accessible.

Speaker 3:

But then I started having some issues with some of the episodes and stuff, like I think it was difficult for me to upload and stuff, and I was like, okay, I can't, you know, even though they were very responsible, like I can't really do this. And so I found Blueberry, because I heard, heard the interview from Todd and I think. So I stumbled onto their platform and I've been using them ever since. And then I have gold wave, which it's a software that I had to buy. I couldn't, you know, it's like with jaws, I had to. Well, I didn't originally buy my screen reader, but I do have to keep the maintenance going.

Speaker 1:

So, unfortunately, our stuff is a lot, it's not, it's not cheap so yeah, so jaws is the creator of the screen reader and I guess then and you know, for those of you that don't know, I mean accessibility is sort of a term that people that haven't experienced, you know, talking with people like yourself there's no emotional attachment, right. But then you know, in the group we were talking about well, should we be on circle for well, should we be on Circle for our group, or should we be on Slack or LinkedIn or Facebook? You raised your hand and said look, facebook is not accessible. What that means for the people listening is, if the software, if the website, can't be read by the screen reader, it is invisible to Melissa and all the other millions, if not tens of millions, of people around the world because the website wasn't designed in a way to allow the screen reader to read it. Would that be a fair assessment, melissa?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and actually JAWS is actually the screen reader. The company that created JAWS is now called Vispero. It used to be called Freedom Scientific and I still refer to them as Freedom. Scientific but they created a screen reader called JAWS and they've also created some different products like screen magnification and different things like that. For people who use large print, which I don't, I use Braille and audio.

Speaker 1:

Got it. So, in other words, if the screen reader can't read it, you can't use it. So this is why, when people join my digital first mastermind, you know we've we've avoided Facebook. Now we finally joined Facebook and provided accommodation for Melissa as part of that, but for a few years there we we absolutely avoided it. And even today, like the whole StreamYard incident, I'll find the site and then Melissa will be like is it accessible or not? So I'll like, I'll send her the link and have you check it out. So yeah, it's a crazy world. I mean, if people knew that Facebook wasn't accessible, linkedin was obviously. You're active on Twitter, slash X as well. That's accessible.

Speaker 1:

So, I guess you know I was going to ask you have you encountered any specific accessibility barriers on platforms you use for content creation? So you mentioned the podcast host. Obviously you are active on LinkedIn, twitter, youtube, so that hasn't been a problem. And when you have a problem, like Facebook, you just can't participate. And for those of you that are curious, burberry is the old school podcast solution Actually, they were the biggest for WordPress. They have a dedicated WordPress plugin. So instead of subscribing to a podcast host, like I do with Buzzsprout, you do it through your WordPress site with Burberry. That's a great tool. So thanks for that reminder.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I guess obviously you know this has shaped your perspective on digital accessibility. I think and we talk about this like you have two sides. One is you want to raise awareness in the whole world, for you know what you have to do in the whole world for what you have to do, but on the other hand, you're also taking this training to learn how to serve businesses that want to become more accessible. So I guess, tell us your experiences, because I know that you have actually reached out to many businesses and said, hey, your website's not accessible, or what have you. How have those experiences been, I guess I want to ask you.

Speaker 3:

A freaking nightmare.

Speaker 1:

That's what I wanted to hear. So I mean, let us know, Melissa, this is your platform.

Speaker 3:

There have been some companies who say well, we'll let our product manager know, and then I don't ever hear from anybody again, and so it's like are you all listening to me or what I mean? Certain companies like Blueberry, they will respond right away, they will fix things, like okay, like I have a website, now my website is connected. I mean, it's not on WordPress, but it's connected to WordPress in that it's using WordPress as the the platform but my website is hosted through HostGator.

Speaker 1:

Okay, and.

Speaker 3:

HostGator is very accessible. In fact. Now I did not have to tell them this. I have no idea who did, but I'm grateful they did. Somebody must have told them at some point that they didn't have a dedicated line for people who use assistive technology, like if you have issues logging into their website. So now they have one. I've never had to use it, but I'm so grateful for whoever told them. Kudos to you, because if I had ever needed help, that would be the line I would be calling. But I've never had an issue with logging in. They're very responsive and everything. But yeah, a lot of companies, a lot of businesses, they, you know it's like you say, it's like they think accessibility, but they think of it as an act of thought.

Speaker 3:

So they think of it when you come to them and say okay, I'm going to sue your company because you are not accessible, then all of a sudden they want to make the website accessible when it needs to become accessible right out the box.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and you know it's funny and we've talked about this before, and this is not a political podcast by any means, but there is this diversity, equity and inclusion initiative agenda that many corporations have included in their marketing, including even an influencer marketing. It's something we talk about, yet it is always about gender and ethnicity. It's never about disabilities, right? Which is the other issue here of why isn't that part of the story or the dialogue?

Speaker 3:

Right, and you know, and yes, I am part of that community, in the DEI community, because I am a person of color, so I fit. I definitely, and I'm a female too, so I fit into that category too. But it's like you know, it's like you were saying inclusion when they think of inclusion, they think of including people of color or Latinas, or they don't think of including those of us who maybe use a wheelchair, or, you know, those of us who have low vision, or those of us, like me, who only have light perception. That's all I have. So, you know, I am working. I did create a manifesto and I, at some point I'm going to create a business book based on the manifesto, because I have books that deal with diversity, equity and inclusion that I want to review on my own podcast. But you know, of course, I would be reviewing it from a person with a disability profession, which I know will not be mentioned, but I'm sure that I'm talking about people of color, and so I want to hear what they got to say.

Speaker 1:

You know on that note, melissa, I think it would be interesting. I know we didn't prepare this in advance, but I talk about AI that it makes a lot of things accessible right. It allows people, for instance, overseas that do not speak fluent English, to be able to create content that is fluent English, that has perfect grammar. How has AI helped you? Because I know that you use it a lot and you found a lot of benefit from it.

Speaker 3:

So, interestingly enough, I was literally just asked to speak on a panel about this very same topic in a few weeks.

Speaker 1:

Nice.

Speaker 3:

This lady in Open Voice Network. She contacted me and she wants to do she's doing an inclusivity panel, so she asked me to speak Now. We'll be doing ours on StreamYard, so that will be interesting. But I mean, you know, but depending on the ai platform, I've been able to use it for the most part, like chat, gpt. There are some unlabeled buttons on there, but for the most part it is, for the most part, accessible and as far as unlabeled buttons, I can't do anything about that because I'm not a developer of that platform.

Speaker 1:

In other words, if a web designer or web developer is too lazy not to label a button, it means that nobody with a disability or many people it depends on the disability obviously just can't use it, which defeats the whole purpose of creating such buttons. Right, that should be a hint to people. So I think we've already hinted at it. But, melissa, from your perspective and I know you're undergoing the training as well why is and this may not be a short answer, but why is digital accessibility then important for businesses in terms of market reach, in terms of brand perception? I mean, if you were to summarize the work you're doing now, how would you summarize that to someone, to a business? You're talking to a CEO and he has no idea of why they need to invest in accessibility. What would you tell them?

Speaker 3:

Well, one thing accessibility is not just for those of us with disabilities, it needs to be for everybody. So, like you were mentioning about one thing accessibility is not just for those of us with disabilities, it needs to be for everybody. So, like you were mentioning about, you know, people from overseas who can't speak English. Well, they need a website that's accessible too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

You know. So it's not just us, but it's important because there are certain things that we would like to be able to do, certain platforms that we would like to be able to do, certain platforms that we would like to be able to access, because it seems like everybody else is on them, but if we can't access them, there's no, you know, we can't access them. So it's like with TikTok.

Speaker 1:

That's right, not accessible right.

Speaker 3:

No, which is why I still have an account on there and I have yet to figure out how to delete it, because it's not accessible, oh man. So Facebook, you know. Same thing with Facebook. Now, interestingly enough, instagram, for the most part, is accessible. The only part that's not accessible is the Instagram stories, and I think that's because that's connected with the app and the app is not accessible.

Speaker 3:

Gotcha because that's connected with the app and the app is not accessible gotcha but the real the part about doing real is accessible and I still need to do some more posting on that.

Speaker 3:

But, um, yeah, so I mean I know that since covid, you know the one positive thing is that more people are being made aware, but I feel like there's still some work to be done.

Speaker 3:

And you know, years ago, at Wayne County Community College, when I was at Wayne County Community College, which is in Detroit, michigan, I had a teacher and I know he was Black. I don't know how I knew, I don't know if it was because of what he said that made me know who was Black, or Anyway, his name was Stephen Chenault and he taught creative writing and he said and I know he was referring to Black people, but I take this as saying for the uniquely able, as I term it I'm kind of like some of the people who have disabilities, who do not like the term disabled Sorry guys, we don't like it, so don't do this but he said that we think that civil rights is over and it's not, and I know he was referring to African Americans, but in my view it's not over for those of us with disabilities, because if it were over, everything would be accessible.

Speaker 1:

Indeed.

Speaker 3:

And you know, I mean, you know I was once mentioned to. I call her my cousin, but she's really like my mom's cousin, but we still consider ourselves cousins. You remember that song this World Was Made For you and Me. Yep. Well, I feel like the world was not made for me yeah, that's.

Speaker 1:

I mean. You know they have laws and we can go deep, like ada compliance and there's all these things, but at the heart of it it just requires a little bit of love and understanding, right?

Speaker 1:

yeah and while you were talking, I wanted to prepare the statistic. But from a business perspective, it is said that 8% of the United States population, or nearly 20 million people, have visual impairments, including 1 million who are blind. Obviously, there are other impairments as well audio impairments, et cetera, et cetera. So it is a huge audience as well that is not being served, although when there's a, when there's a burberry that comes in and serves the audience, obviously they're. They're going to get the business. So there's also this, above and beyond, it's the right thing to do. There there are, you know, economic and financial, you know reasons to do that. Let me ask you a question. So you talked. I want to get a little bit more into the weeds. You talked about, like, not labeling buttons. So what are the biggest accessibility mistakes that you see businesses make on their website, or what prevents their website from being accepted? What are, like, the core things that they're missing out on?

Speaker 3:

So for one thing, like I said, unlabeled buttons. So if you run across a, button with your experience and it says and it just says it might say unlabeled button, then you don't know what that button is. So that's one issue. Form fields have to be labeled correctly. So I haven't run across this recently, but I know, like some websites, they will have a form that you have to fill out to, let's say, you want to subscribe to their newsletter.

Speaker 3:

Well, they might have the email field, where your name is supposed to be, and it may say email, and you think that's where your email is supposed to go and it's not.

Speaker 1:

Oh, wow, okay.

Speaker 3:

But they may have. The submission button may not be labeled and it just may say button or something.

Speaker 1:

Got it, got it.

Speaker 3:

And then there are all these websites and emails do it too. It'll say click here. I use a keyboard. I can't click. I don't even know what that means and people have tried to explain to me and I still don't know. I don't have a clue what that means. I don't know what it means to click anything. I can't click.

Speaker 1:

Right, and therefore, in order for you to navigate to a website, then you need to know the URL and then you can navigate. And UCLA Extension, where I teach, they include accessibility. They made sure that all my course materials actually have an accessibility check and that was one thing I was taught as well. To make sure that you include that URL so that people know, before they click on something, where they're going, was also part of what they were training. So I guess for people with submit buttons, that's a really hard one, because with newsletters the submit is like this JavaScript code very, very long, special URL but there has to be an accommodation made in essence in order to allow people to click that.

Speaker 3:

Right, yeah, so those are some issues that I run across and you know I've started telling, and some newsletters that I'm subscribed to will say it'll say click here, but it will say click here to read more or something.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 3:

Which is better than just a click. I don't know what click means. I don't have a clue. And then the other issue is a lot of websites have this their images are not labeled, so they don't have alt text on their images. So they may have an image, but it may just say image, it may just say graphic. I don't know what that means.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think that too many of us digital marketers just think of that alt image tag as SEO right Without really giving context to what that is and the value it's adding to the article.

Speaker 3:

Right, and yesterday, going back to my training, so, like I was saying, we've been learning about the disability models and we just started learning about the laws that you were just referring to, and so we have. So we're literally getting into this information and it's really interesting because I mean, yeah, we talk about the ADA, but we don't talk about some of the other laws, like there's laws in Europe and there's laws in Japan, all these different laws in all these different countries that we don't even talk about. And they did say that ADA compliant is the correct word, that is the correct terminology that you are supposed to use. And they just showed us a video called who Wants to be an Accessibility Champion and it was really interesting because it was like a trivia thing where they had these panelists who were actually in the field farther than I am and a lot of information.

Speaker 3:

They were dealing with some of the stuff, about all text, and some of them got a lot of the information wrong. So it's like the alt text it needs to be there, but it also needs to be descriptive. So I can't say something like maybe, an image of one person. It has to be descriptive, like it needs to say something like uh neo shaper drinking coffee or I don't know. I'm just making this up, but you know it needs to be more descriptive, otherwise we don't have a clue what that means so, for businesses that are just starting with accessibility, where would you recommend they begin at the end of it?

Speaker 1:

they've listened to this. They realize that they've neglected it. What would you recommend they do other than obviously hiring you as a consultant to to go through their website, but outside of that?

Speaker 3:

right well, well, other that, because right now I'm just I'm just learning how to do that, which which you know we we'll be getting into that in a few weeks learning how to literally go in and audit websites and that whole thing. So, other than that, there are different companies out there that that's all they do is they? They literally consult companies that want to make their website and different digital content more accessible. There's a website that we just looked at as part of this training. Well, I looked at it because I wanted to see what they offered. It's's called PerkinsAccessorg. It's connected to Perkins School for the Blind.

Speaker 3:

I didn't even know this site existed until we saw this video about who wants to be in a accessibility campaign, and I'll have to send it to you, neil, I'll have to find it on YouTube and send it to you. It's good information. So their one site I guess I'd recommend because that's all they do all day is digital accessibility consulting, and so I guess I'd recommend that the business look into finding somebody who is more than just me, who right now I just have the user experience. They need to find somebody who is an actual digital accessibility consultant.

Speaker 2:

I mean I can claim.

Speaker 3:

I am all day but I can't really construct anyone because I don't have a clue what I'm doing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, from the user experience definitely, but from the business side, you know, you're still in training, so you know. One platform that I've heard of, I think we talked about before, is a platform called AccessiBe.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And that supposedly it's one of these technologies where just by embedding it in your website it'll make it accessible. But I'm curious have you ever used it or have you heard of other companies like it?

Speaker 3:

I've been in contact with the people who actually run the site. So the thing about accessibility checkers because my website does have an accessibility checker on there that I got from a company called Equalize Digital and they do accessibility all day. In fact, I have an interview with the lady who founded it on my podcast.

Speaker 1:

There, you go.

Speaker 3:

The thing about accessibility checkers is that I have discovered, because a lot of webinars dealing with accessibility have come out of, you know, covid and everything, which is good for me because I feel like I just have the user experience. I need to be in the know of what's going on in the world of accessibility, you know. But a lot of webinars have said they said that you can use an accessibility checker, but you still need to have the user. You still need to like, consult people with disabilities and make sure it really is accessible, because an accessibility checker it only checks for certain things and it's just a piece of software.

Speaker 3:

So it can't check for everything which you know. I heard that enough. Like, well, that makes sense, duh, I mean right.

Speaker 1:

So unless you really have someone on staff that is that has that disability right, that is checking it, you'll never know. It's almost like creating and one reason why I haven't done about creating like a foreign language translation of a book but you don't read the language. And if you don't have someone who reads the language read it?

Speaker 3:

you'll never know yeah, and that's a good. That's a good analogy, because that's exactly what it's like, you know it's. It's. It's like creating a form, a book, only in print and you don't offer audio, audio and you don't offer braille. And then somebody like me comes wrong and they want the book but they can't, you know, access it because you know the, the kindle, the publishing platform, is accessible, but the actual kindle software, where you can read the books, is not accessible really that's.

Speaker 3:

That's actually surprising yeah, I haven't checked recently, but last I checked it wasn't accessible. So whereas I can publish my my work on kindle, I just can't get any kindle books I wish. I mean, you know audible is accessible, so that's you know, that's fine with me. And then of course, I have the library for the blind, and now they're calling themselves plant handicapped or plant disabled. I think they used to call libraries for the blind and physically handicapped.

Speaker 3:

But you know, I get books from them too which I get for free. But it's hard to know which books they will have and which books Audible has. So some books that Audible has, they don't get in. And then some books that Audible gets in, they may get in like soon after it's posted on Audible and it's like on Audible and it's like, okay, I don't need to buy that one, I can just get it from them. So sometimes I have to buy Audible books because well, for one thing I love reading and for another thing I can't tell which library is going to get in and when they're going to get in.

Speaker 1:

And I think this leads to a greater discussion. I was talking actually with a cousin of mine. She is a I guess it's a fiction but there's nonfiction behind it Sort of a young adult, and she doesn't have an audio book, and you know. That's obviously how we connected, but it's also in marketing.

Speaker 1:

We talk about having your content and products available in different formats based on people's preferences Right, but in your case obviously it's not a preference, it's a must have. It's not in that format, you can't consume it. So it's just another great reminder of that. I know I have not done this, but I have seen websites Maybe I've experienced this, melissa where this little button like click here to hear the blog post. Have you ever run a blog post like that?

Speaker 3:

I'm pretty sure I I think so, but I I usually yeah but the screen reader reads it right yeah, from what I remember, I think it'll say something like listen to this blog post, or something like that. But I'm busy reading it because it'll read it also you know, read it.

Speaker 3:

But the reason, you know, like I was telling you at some point when we were talking, the reason I don't use the computer for like our main dual calls is because my screen reader reads everything. So if people they start chatting, it'll read that. And if leo is trying to teach I have to stop my screen reader because I can't hear both.

Speaker 3:

So gotcha I call in on the phone. Now you know something like this. You know this is different because the only things on my screen we read was when it was recording and that was kind of it. But you know, if we had a whole bunch of people, like we do, on our group calls, I would have had to call in. And maybe it's just me, but I don't feel comfortable having a bunch of people listen to my screen reader yammer on. And it could be just me, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and you know, in our weekly calls Melissa does actually dial in. So when I see the phone number pop in, I know it's her and at first it's like you know, zoom offers you the ability to allow people to access the call via phone. It's like who would use that right. But once again, if I didn't do that, melissa couldn't access the call. So it's all about accessibility accommodation. I want to end Melissa, as we're getting near the end here with and I want to end Melissa, as we're getting near the end here, with two questions. So I guess number one, you know, are there any exciting advancements do you see in the future of digital accessibility? I'm assuming that we have AI and with AI I'm hoping that robotic voice, that the screen reader has is going to become more human and soft.

Speaker 3:

I mean, maybe you'll be able to choose your own accent. You know your own gender voice as well. You know your own gender voice as well. Yeah, with the screen reader and I was just talking to my dad about this a while ago, because that's the one thing that they don't have with freedom scientific, they don't have it where they do have different languages and they do have different genders. But what they don't have is they don't have different dialects. So I can't choose an African-American dialect. That's not an option.

Speaker 3:

And you know, actually what really brought that to my attention was there's another member, there are a few members in my Open Voice Network group. I think one of them is blind. I'm not sure of his visual impairment, but I know he's blind. And then there's another member named Lee Clark and he's from the UK and he did a presentation a few like last year sometime, and he was talking about how, in the voice space which is now, it is something I do want to get into, because one thing he was saying is people are not all represented, so it's like not just people with disabilities but people who are people of color were not represented. So it's like they only take white people, which you know.

Speaker 3:

It made me think I'm like I didn't think of that and I guess I wouldn't, because I just use the screen reader. I don't know, I couldn't tell anyone how it works, but I just use it. I don't know, like I don't know the mechanics of how it works and there's no way for me to actually find out. I actually called a company and they say we don't have, we just have a warehouse. We don't have a place where you can tour.

Speaker 1:

And I was like oh darn. Well, on that note, melissa, what message would you like to leave our audience of marketers and entrepreneurs and small business owners? I think we covered a lot, but I want to make sure that your message is heard. Is there anything that we missed or any sort of final words you'd like to give our audience?

Speaker 3:

So I just want to say, other than hooking up with Neil, who is really awesome, Appreciate that.

Speaker 1:

Thank you.

Speaker 3:

I just want to say you know you all need to look at the disability market and start looking at people who are digital accessibility consultants. Again, that's not me because I don't have the training yet, but that's that's that'll be coming that's coming yeah, that's definitely coming.

Speaker 3:

But you know, look at some actual digital accessibility consultants and tell them, hey, I heard about this person with disability and I need to make my site more accessible, and they'll more than likely get you guys going because my site more accessible and they'll more than likely get you guys going because you know. And then they'll more than likely get you guys going because that is definitely something that we we need more people who are willing to make their content accessible. And then the other thing is when you want to change things, like, let's say, the site used to be accessible and then a year later, let's say I get on and all of a sudden it's not accessible, which has happened a lot yeah, make sure it's part of your checklist to make sure you maintain accessibility.

Speaker 3:

That's a no-brainer yeah, that's not only that. Make sure it's accessible, but try to find some people who actually have disabilities and consult them and say, hey, I just made some changes to my website. In fact, my writing coach just did this. She had updated her website and went to a whole new platform and she actually sent me the link and said I need you to check this out because I just made some changes. I want you to see if it's successful. Now I was able to do that because I do have the screen reader.

Speaker 3:

But had she wanted me to audit it, I couldn't have done that, but I could have recommended someone for her to. You know, talk to to audit. So that's my thing is I can't audit a person's digital content, but I can tell you from my experience it was successful. But the other thing is you can't just consult. You have to consult other people with other disabilities, yep, yep. Other. You know cognitive impairments, or maybe someone who's deaf, or you know someone who has seizure disorder. You know somebody like that, somebody with another disability other than just visual impairment.

Speaker 3:

Because one thing that I you know in taking this training course, like I said, we just learned about different models of disability, and I was talking to my mom and one of the models is a cultural identity affiliation model and she was telling me which I would never have thought this. But when I started taking this training course, they asked me okay, so what do you want to do with this material? My response was something to the effect of well, I want to use it for the blind people. And they were like you can't just use it for the blind people, you have to use it for other people with other disabilities. So that's what my mom meant. I was trying to associate accessibility with only my disability and not realizing wait a minute, what about the other thousands of people who you know have this disability or that disability? Or you know what about the mentally challenged? You know, I wasn't thinking of that because I don't experience that. You know, I know someone who has a cognitive impairment, but we don't talk about our disabilities.

Speaker 1:

And I think it's natural. If you haven't experienced something, you don't know about it. You need to make the effort. And I think, melissa, I mean to sort of sum up, I mean it's not just good business, it's the right thing to do, and those companies that are doing good, that are making emotional attachments with their community, those are the companies that will be successful. And I also want to remind people you know, a decade ago, if I was doing a video, I did not have reading glasses on. I have reading glasses on now, right?

Speaker 1:

So at a certain age we all become visually impaired to different degrees. We all become audio impaired to different degrees. So it is more of a general like is your font? That's why I go out of my way to make sure I have large font size on my website and it drives me crazy when I see tiny you know font size or when it's not in black color, it's in like a light gray font. So it really is a universal thing to you know impairment at different degrees, but it's a mindset that I think companies really need to put into practice. And obviously it starts with understanding and hopefully this interview with Melissa gave everyone a great understanding. Melissa, where can people go if they want to? Obviously, you're uniquely abled on Twitter, linkedin. Obviously, melissa Green, any other place we can send people.

Speaker 3:

Well, so my LinkedIn is Melissa Green and, by the way, for those of you who don't know, Melissa Green is actually a pen name. It's not my actual name, but it's a pen name. But anyway, because I write also, so you all can go to my LinkedIn profile. It'll say there's apparently a bunch of people with the name Melissa Green but mine. It will say Greensboro, North Carolina.

Speaker 2:

There we go.

Speaker 3:

And then there's Instagram is A Blue Green Galaxy and my Twitter handle is A Blue Green Cabotel GXY, because it said I didn't have enough spaces to put galaxy.

Speaker 1:

It happens. And then, what about your podcast?

Speaker 3:

My podcast is called Uniquely Able. Now here's what I have discovered. There are a lot of companies called Uniquely Able, so you all have to actually put in Uniquely Able on Apple Podcast or Spotify. Spotify is accessible too, but you all have to put it in because otherwise you're going to come across a bunch of. There's a company called Uniquely Abled Academy. There's a project. I had no clue that, that even I didn't even, which is a good thing. But you know, I didn't know that when I named my podcast Uniquely Abled.

Speaker 3:

I didn't realize that well, there's a lot of other Uniquely Abled. I didn't realize that, whether it's a mother, whether you're uniquely, abled before on here.

Speaker 3:

you aren't the only one. So you know, like I said, that's a good thing, but I think the terms need to be changed. I mean, you know, calling someone disabled is, I want to say, outdated, but it's when I think of the term disabled as I'm sure many people with disabilities do, and I know some people in my training course, do you know, it makes us think of people who can't do anything to say.

Speaker 3:

One thing that my aunt and I were talking about was, you know, if the company does not know someone with a disability, if they are not connected with someone with a disability, they are not going to want to work with us. They'll feel like we need too many things, we need too many accommodations, we need, you know, too many things that they don't want to pay. They don't want to invest their money to spend on, say, jaws, or let's say, the person needs a wheelchair, or you know, or even a wheelchair ramp, or you know. They'll feel like we need too much stuff and so they don't want it, they don't want to deal with it, so that's.

Speaker 3:

the other thing is I was just on a webinar yesterday and it was dealing with speaking and, yes, it was on Zoom, but one of the circle communities that I'm in, and the lady was saying, you know, she was saying, basically, we need to those of us with disabilities, we kind of need to build, we need to build our own speaking opportunities, because it was dealing with speaking.

Speaker 3:

It was dealing with like launching your speaking business. But my thing is, you know, I was mentioning to her that you know, I'm in Toastmasters for one thing, but a lot of companies, you know, for one thing, they use Facebook and since I can't use Facebook, I don't know what. You know, there are all these speaking gigs, but for one thing, I don't know what's out there. And for another thing, I feel like my topic is not being represented enough. It's kind of like, you know, it's like they have all these different conferences, you know all these different topics, but they only deal with, like, the people of color and the latinos and you know, which is fine, but we're, we're in world two yeah, and I think that's loud and clear, and I hope that those that are listening will take action.

Speaker 1:

Obviously, if you want to take action, melissa is going to be on your side and a great ally, so make sure you reach out, melissa. Thank you so much for sharing your story and, uh, you know, inspiring on the one hand, but on the other hand, there's still a lot of work to do and hopefully this interview will help those efforts, even if it's just a little bit, to contribute.

Speaker 3:

Yep, and so my website is ablugreengalaxycom.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, I'm gonna make sure that all those links are in the show notes and obviously at any time.

Speaker 3:

If anyone can't get hold of Melissa, let me know and I'll make sure you two connect, but, melissa, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no problem. All right, I hope you were inspired by the interview. Melissa is actually on my digital first mastermind calls. We have calls four times a month. She by far is the one that is most bought in. She is always showing up, always reporting back, telling me about her plans, having the group hold her accountable and, like I said, it's amazing to see what she has already accomplished and I'm really looking forward to seeing what she will accomplish in the future.

Speaker 1:

If that is a group that sounds interesting to you to be able to learn to network with other small business owners, entrepreneurs, content creators and get some accountability and get my help as well, I would love to have you in my Digital First Mastermind community. All you need to do is go to neilschafercom slash membership. You can sign up there. If you wait a little bit, there is going to be a perk in my Kickstarter to join at a discount. There's also going to be a new community that I'm going to be starting, the Digital Threads community, where you will have a chance to become a founding member of as well, exclusively through that Kickstarter. So make sure and I hate repeating a link over and over, I feel a little slimy, but I want to serve you, and that's the best way to do so. So neilschafercom slash Kickstarter.

Speaker 2:

And that's it for another episode. This is your digital marketing coach, neal Schaefer, signing off. You've been listening to your digital marketing coach. Questions, comments, requests, links. Go to podcastnealschafercom. Get the show notes to this and 200 plus podcast episodes at nealschafercom to tap into the 400 plus blog posts that Ne Neil has published to support your business. While you're there, check out Neil's digital first group coaching membership community if you or your business needs a little helping hand. See you next time on your digital marketing coach.