Your Digital Marketing Coach with Neal Schaffer

What Marketers and Entrepreneurs Need to Understand about Protecting Their Brands [Bao Tran Interview]

• Neal Schaffer • Episode 230

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We are all using digital marketing to grow our business, and in doing so we are creating brand equity along the way. Brand equity is a powerful concept that doesn't appear in your income statement but indirectly helps you grow your business in tandem with your digital and social media marketing.

When it comes to brand equity, there are some legal aspects that are important to understand so that what you grow in your business becomes rightfully and legally yours. This is especially true if your dream is to sell your company to a larger entity or receive funding from venture capitalists.

For that reason, we have a unique interview with someone today, Bao Tran, an IP attorney who is launching a new startup to help democratize the patent application process. In this interview you will learn:

1) Why brandings are a significant part of company valuation
2) Different innovative ways brands can be protected with Trademarks
3) Different ways brands can be protected with Copyrights

After listening to this episode you will be able to navigate the legal system from a branding perspective and understand what next steps you might want to take.

Key Highlights

[02:54] Introduction of Podcast Guest, Bao Tran

[07:29] Company Valuation

[10:00] The Ways Companies Can Protect Their Brand and Valuation

[12:53] Things That You Can Get Trademarked

[14:58] Ways You Can Distinguish Your Product

[17:03] Why Trademark Clearance Search Is Important?

[17:26] Trademark Search Options

[20:00] What Are Copyrights?

[21:35] Best Practices for Copyrights

[24:16] The Third Element in Trademark Context

[26:17] How Can I Protect NFT?

[27:37] Connect with Bao

Notable Quotes

  • In our present world that most of the value is in the consumer recognition of your brand and that's why your work and you know, and your co-workers work in marketing is super critical to the value of a company.
  • The point here is it's under your control. If you don't want anybody else to come in, you can do that, if you want to allow people coming in, in exchange for a royalty you can do that is under your control.
  • But you know, when you're doing that for a very for a year, if you're stretching out to a year period, the risk is increasing that possibly somebody could enter your business ahead of you, and then block you from using that name.
  • It’s what we call a specimen. So you just upload that to the copyright, very inexpensive, and, you know, you can do it yourself and get that protection, easy protection.
  • If you think that somebody is going to reuse that, then you want to control that by having a copyright registration. Copyright registration allows you to then go and pursue the party that you know, you think is misusing your copyright.

Connect with Bao Tran

  • Bao Tran on Linke

Learn More:

Neal Schaffer:

Whether you're a marketer, or a business owner or an entrepreneur, there's certain legal aspects about your brand that you should understand you've worked hard, you're taking all of my advice, you're building your business digitally. Yet there are certain things you need to know about our legal system. In order to best protect your brand equity that is going to be the unique subject that I have yet to cover, but I urge all of you to listen in to the end. On this next episode of The your digital marketing coach, podcast. Digital social media content, influencer marketing, blogging, podcasting, blogging, tick tocking, LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, SEO, sem, PPC, email marketing, who there's a lot to cover, whether you're a marketing professional entrepreneur, or business owner, you need someone you can rely on For expert advice. Good thing you've got Neil, on your side, because Neal Schaffer is your digital digital marketing marketing coach, helping you grow your business with digital first marketing one episode at a time. This is your digital marketing coach. And this is Neal Schaffer. Hey, everybody, Neal Schaffer here, your digital marketing coach, and welcome to episode number 230 of my podcast, How y'all doing today, this is once again coming to you live, well recorded live. In my two week hotel quarantine room in Tokyo, Japan, the legal system. It's funny, there's a lot of people that invest a lot of time and money, and they build up a business. And maybe they want to eventually sell their business. And there are certain things that they need to understand in terms of their branding and everything else that they're doing as a business, both directly and indirectly related to marketing, that can really significantly increase the amounts of well, brand equity and therefore the amount of money that you might be able to cash in on at the end of the day, or the perceived value of your products or services. That's what branding is all about. But there is a legal aspect of branding that you need to know about in order to protect yourself. It's something that a lot of businesses are confused about. They think it costs a lot of money or they simply don't know where to start. Well this episode is for you. It is really a dumbed down what marketers and entrepreneurs need to understand about protecting your brands within the IP system. We talked about the IP system in the United States, but I think the concepts really apply globally. Now, I'm really honored to have a special guest Bao Tran bow, you'll hear is the entrepreneurial founder of a company that is looking to revolutionize the way that companies can apply for patents for their work. We talk about patents, we talk about trademarks, we talk about all different things like copyrights, but really how brandings are a significant part of your company valuation, and therefore, it's a small investment to make to really protect your present and your future equity. So bow, I'm fortunate to have him as a member of my digital first mastermind community. He's one of a number of entrepreneurs, business owners, marketers all looking to leverage digital and social media marketing as their strategic growth engine. If it interests you, please go to Neal Schaffer comm slash membership where you can apply as well. But hey, let's get on to this episode. I think it's going to be a real eye opener and really educational. And I think by the end of it, you're gonna have a really good understanding of all the legal aspects of branding, and what you might want to consider doing as a next step. So without further ado, here is my interview with Bao Tran. You're listening to your digital marketing coach. This is Neal Schaffer. Everybody, I am your digital marketing Coach Neal Schaffer, welcome to another episode of the podcast. What are the legal issues that marketers and entrepreneurs might want to understand when it comes to their business, their products or services? This is something that I really haven't tackled on this podcast on my blog. I've talked about like email marketing laws, like can spam and things of that nature. But there are things, some issues that are probably more fundamental to your business that you'll probably want to understand. And I'm really excited today because my guest is the perfect person to answer Well, you're not gonna have to ask him questions, but he's going to give you the answers you've been looking for in terms of return When we look at the IP system, what do us as marketers and entrepreneurs need to understand? And how can we best protect our brands? Regardless of product or service? It's gonna be a fascinating conversation. First of all, I'd like to introduce my guest, Bao Tran Tao, welcome to the podcast.

Bao Tran:

Thank you very much for the opportunity to be here. Neil, you've been in done a lot of pioneering work in digital marketing. And I'm always amazed when I hear your podcast, and I learned so much from it. So it's a pleasure to be here. It is my

Neal Schaffer:

pleasure, my friend. It's always refreshing to have an actual book reader podcast listener, and member of my digital first community on my podcast. So thank you and, and for those that don't know you, I don't know if you'd call yourself I know you as an entrepreneur, because I know you're building a new service, but you also have a background as an attorney. So can you give everybody doesn't mean so just sort of a feel as to your background?

Bao Tran:

Yeah. So yeah, sure, I kind of took a very long twisted way to where I am originally, I was in engineering and I loved engineer, you know, building compasses, computers, and then it just my last year, you know, I thought to myself, that must be something more interesting to learn. And Columbia University came to my school, and they accepted me into the MBA program. So I went up to New York did a stint as a management consultant, and then my, my mother got an illness. So then I got detour back into Texas. And then I add a law degree. So a lot of a shorter one is I became a lawyer. And then I was lucky enough to be moved to Silicon Valley, where I was working with a bunch of interesting startups, one of which was like Invisalign, the dental craze. So when they got their series A they hired me and as the general associate General Counsel, and I architected that portfolio, and dealt with the branding issues of public company. And then after about five years, I kind of jumped off and help a lot of startups along the way. Now, I've decided to join the group by having my own startups. So that's how I got here.

Neal Schaffer:

Yet, hopefully, we'll we'll have you talk about that. The next time. I know in the community, you've been asking a lot of great questions, trying to give you advice on how to how to get that going. So excited about that. But you really have this amazing background where you have the technology, the business, and the legal. So you have some pretty unique perspective to add to the conversation. But I just want to start, I guess, the first thing to look out probably that you had pointed out to me is when marketers when we think of branding, we you know, we think of the visuals, we think about creating emotional attachments. But when you think of branding, you think immediately about company valuation. So why don't we start there. And just there's a lot of entrepreneurs that also listen to this, that at one point might want to sell their company, and they probably don't really connect the branding, with the valuation. So let's start there about

Bao Tran:

Sure. So when you think about a company valuation, you normally think about the products and the engineers and, and, and all of that, but behind that, I think the marketers are actually creating a lot of values for company. For example, if you look at Apple, according to brand finance ranking, that brand is worried that that Apple brand is worth $263 million. You look at the Amazon branding, it's about another quarter of a billion dollars, Google is about almost $200 million in value. So the recognition of the brand is a very significant part of the company valuations. These days. We don't think of you know, company values as in the manufacturing anymore. I mean, most A lot of it is outsource. And I hope to see that move, you know, move back into the US. But it's certainly in our present, you know, world, most of the value is in the consumer recognition of your brand. And that's why your work and your cohorts work in marketing is super critical, critical to the value of a company.

Neal Schaffer:

So when you bring up these values, Apple 263 million Amazon 254 million, that valuation is based off the logo, meaning that if any company had could use the Apple logo, they could probably generate $263 million worth of business. Is that how that's calculated?

Bao Tran:

Yeah, sure. I think personally, I think the apple brand is worth a lot more than 263 million. I think that it's just a number of put together by the value evaluate the valuation people. And I think that understates all of this. I mean, Apple To me, it's worth millions. Yeah,

Neal Schaffer:

no, exactly. But it's the recognition of the logo. And these examples are b2c, but it could be the same for b2b as well could really be for any company. So when we're thinking of logos, of branding, it leads to a bigger picture. In other words, yes, companies are valued by x years of sales, here's a profit. But there's another sort of intangible right? And that's where your branding can really add to that. So let's, let's take a little bit further than when we talk about the branding and, you know, apple, Amazon, Google, they hire people like Bao Tran to protect their brand. So What are some of the ways as as business owners, entrepreneurs or marketers that we, once we have this brand name down and we're building valuation for a company? How do we protect that?

Bao Tran:

That's a great question. So you know, in the life of a company, you can have many ways to differentiate your product. For example, the logo is one, your brand name is another, and your slogan could be another and your products can be another as is your storefront. So let's take the example of Apple, we all recognize that Apple is unique in the world of technology, right? An apple is a fruit, you obviously you know, you're not going to be able to trademark Apple is a fruit, but Apple computer or Apple Music is very unique. So that Apple brand is one way, then you got this apple symbol with, you know, partial bite into it. And that is recognized globally as a symbol of apple. And then you got this slogan, see jobs that think different. And that is also when you when you hear that term, you think of as another example, you can look at the iPhone design with its colorful, and you know, eye candy with icons, and here and there, yeah, when you look at that phone, you know, instantly the source of that, and to start pushing the boundary a little bit more, even the way you lay out the store, like the way the Apple stores are laid out, that is a true, you know, a trademark element. And so we'll go you know, we'll illustrate a few more things that it might not be obvious to somebody who's not familiar with trademark law that it couldn't be protected under the trademark system.

Neal Schaffer:

It before we do this is a quick question. So in other words, if I was going to buy out a company, I'd want to buy out a company that has a lot of trademarks. Because those trademarks now are not copyable. But also, the fact that they are able to get a trademark for something means that they have a very, very distinguishable aspect to their brand to their product or service, that sort of a correct assumption.

Bao Tran:

That's right. And with your work, and you know, you know how much money we put into advertisement, all of those things, build up the brand. And you don't want somebody else to just be able to rub off that brand and rub off all the hard work in social market media marketing, and advertising, teachers get a free ride out of it. And so that's the point of the trademark system. By the way, trademark is a dominant part of the branding. But don't forget about the copyrights and design patents, which we will go into next year. But

Neal Schaffer:

I think it's fascinating to you, you almost think as you want, if you want to build a brand asset, you want to be creating more trademarks, and you want to be able to create more distinguishable things. And then once you have those things, the trademark becomes the actual insurance for your brand asset. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So tell us yeah, Apple is I'm sure everyone was nodding as they heard the examples of apple. But what are some other things that we may not understand that actually could be trademarked.

Bao Tran:

So I will give you a quick overview. And then we can go in depth a bit. But what can be a trademark, it could be words, names, slogans, logos, signs and symbols. So that's those are conventional trademark, but then you can start going into things like a store layout, such as the Apple Store, the way you package your product, the shapes of your product, like the Coca Cola design, I guess designs and shapes are kind of similar. More surprisingly, you can do colors, smells, and sounds and taste and feel the beauty about the trademark system is that it never ends, you know, in the future, we may have some sort of augmented reality thing, and somebody may create some very unique way of designating the source of the product in in in AR and that may also become a part of the trademark protection. So this is not a closed list. It's an open ended list. And so to give an example of what a color could be, we're all familiar with the Owens Corning the fiberglass, kind of the protective material erode on your roof, right and so it's color pink, that is a color example. I'll give you another example. I guess I'm not into high heeled shoes and so I was surprised to see this but you know, there's Christian ljuboten that has the red color in the underside of the shoe. And that was trademarked and And apparently, you know, women everywhere recognize that the red underneath the on the under sole of a shoe desig company is making that and when Saint Laurent start doing a shoe that's completely red, they will block from having the red color on the underside of the shoe. So that's an interesting artifact that you know, interesting the use of the trademark for you

Neal Schaffer:

because of that they had to cease and desist. But did Christian neubauten also get some sort of monetary comp? Well, I assume the legal fees were paid for but there could they have licensed that though? I assume you can you can license trademarks as well and it's another revenue generator. Correct?

Bao Tran:

Absolutely not salutely Oh, you know, but it's under you. The point here is is under your control. If you don't want anybody else to come in, you can do that if you want to allow people coming in, in exchange for a royalty you can do that is under you. So another interesting trademark that we don't you know, I guess very common to us it's the shape of the you know, Coca Cola model. When you look at that that model, you know, instantly it's Coca Cola, no other source. So shape can be a way to distinguish your, your product, you might not be aware that the way a candle is melted on top of a cap of a liquor model could be an indication of the source. In this case, the Maker's Mark whiskey, they basically had a seal on the top, and that seal was trademarked in that block everybody else from having a liquor bottle with a the candle material, not the wax on top of the bottle. Yeah, so that's interesting. Another example is, you know, the chair that we've been all been looking at on the on the I guess I forgot the name of this chair company here, but it's the light, air air air chairs, I forgot the name, but it's very unique. And when you look at it, you know, instantly, there's only one company that makes

Neal Schaffer:

out of these ergonomic office chairs.

Bao Tran:

Yeah, exactly. And it has the the the readability on the back of your of the seat. And then there's another very faint, you know, for another example is the user interface layout on a phone and the shape of the phone. So Apple and Samsung, when added, and whether or not a phone that has rounded edges is a, you know, is a unique indication of an Apple phone. So the I think this is a very, it was like a 10 year piece of litigation. And in the end, it was all subtle, but you know, just the shape, the rounded curve around a phone could serve as a trademark, a source of indication,

Neal Schaffer:

something like thinking two things here. I'm trying to think on behalf of the listener, obviously, but number one is we should have more trade markable assets in our business. But number two is, before we do something, is it a best practice to see if someone else has a trademark on it? Obviously?

Bao Tran:

Yes, yes, that would be good to run a search in your space. I think if you're dealing with a consumer product, that should be relatively easy. But But yes, I think it's wise to to do a trademark clearance search.

Neal Schaffer:

And is that a very I'm just thinking, you know, in terms of the business owners here, it sounds like this can be a very expensive process, I'm assuming when you know, registering for a trademark and then doing trademark searches, these are something that trademark attorney that's basically what they do, right. From a budget perspective, what are some of the, you know, the options that business owners might have? I know that you're developing a product, that's going to be even a better solution. But can you give us some feel as to what are the options out there?

Bao Tran:

Yeah, a typical trademark search, I think you can do for less than $1,000. What it will do is it will search the trademark applied for at the US Patent and Trademark Office. But more than that, because a you can have rights in a trademark, even if you don't register, but that right is limited to your zone, your local locality that you operate in that search is gone and is going to have to also look for internet sources of information. You know, like let's say a particular name XYZ, and XYZ may not be registered, but maybe somebody in the middle of the country is running a restaurant that has that name, and you're in the restaurant business and you you wouldn't be aware of them right but have you file for a trademark application. And they then very interesting that they would have a right to continue using that mark in their local area, as long as you know, also your trademark application. And when it's registered, it will be like in like a cheese with a Swiss cheese kind of a concept where you have opened up for people who have used that name before you use it, but they didn't register it. So it's kind of it's a mixture, you should register it early as early as you can. And to prevent that possibility. You know, last week I was speaking to a gentleman who had reserved a particular domain name here and but he just didn't register it. And it turned out and then he started building up his store online store for about a year and a half. And by the time he actually was about the lunch, then he did another search at the trademark Patent and Trademark Office and he found out that the same identical mark in the same business was just allowed a month ahead of a month ahead of him so I told him Look, you're kind of out of luck, you're gonna have to restart and do another one it's just the timing was bad and he didn't think anybody else was going to use that exact name. But you know, when you're when you're doing that for a very for a year if you're stretching out to a year period, that the risk is you know, increases that possibly somebody could enter your business ahead of you and then block you from using that name.

Neal Schaffer:

Sure, sure no, that's great advice. So don't wait Get started now let's shift gears a little bit because there's another part of this which is the copyrights Yes. So trademarks we're sort of all getting schooled here today unless you have a legal background which I don't but but tell us about you know, copyrights is sort of the other way in which we can protect our brands What does that look like what role do they play?

Bao Tran:

Sure. So copyright protects your you know, normally is used to protect my literary works or your photographs or songs or movies so you know so due to copyright really applied right onto your web p website design because you would have all of that you have text in your website you got images that you use you got videos and sound I think mainly your website is is it should be protected using the copyright system and you notice here that the independent protection that you can do in parallel the copyright aspects on the website and on your your design you know the the product design and then you still have a trademark aspect where people are looking at it you know will say oh I see that common shape I know that shape is associated with this company so it's really combination is not one of the other

Neal Schaffer:

gods you so our copyrights you know my understand is as being an author I understand that there's sort of a natural copyright and then there's like ways to register copyrights and then there we can go into things like the DMCA and are your contents only protected if you register so maybe you can go in a little bit about what are the best practices because everybody listening should have a website and what do they need to be concerned about

Bao Tran:

there? Yes, the The good thing about copyright is is easy and inexpensive to paint in fact we I just point people who come to me just say I just go to the copyright office and do it yourself it's inexpensive $30 for the filing fee and the instructions are very you know reasonable for you to follow you basically put it in the name when it was created the owner and then you put in a copy of the item that you're trying to copyright so is the we call it a specimen so you just upload that to the copyright very inexpensive and you know you can do it yourself and get that protection easy protection

Neal Schaffer:

and that's that's that's done on a page by page basis then

Bao Tran:

no like for example if you have a book right you would put the entire PDF into one document and upload that in case of a website I would say just print out different pages of your website and put it into one single document and upload that if you have a video that's long you might want to you know separately copyright what else yeah you know I think some people have also copyrighted the logo then that might be a belt and suspenders approach you know you trademark your logo and also copyright it but in general that I think is getting a little bit belt an overly belt and suspenders but certainly a logo is a you know a unique design a unique work that you can get copyright

Neal Schaffer:

on so I guess this leads to the next question which is we have a lot of content creators that listen this podcast let's say you're youtuber should you be copywriting your videos when you upload them to YouTube What do you think?

Bao Tran:

Absolutely. I mean yeah to the extent that you know if you think that somebody is gonna is going to reuse that then you want to control that by having a copyright registration so so copyright arises as an automatic act of the creation the The only thing that that you need a registration for is to actually to enforce your federal rights so the good news about copyright is is very simple you created the copyright exists already but copyright registration allows you to then go and and pursue the party that you think is is misusing your your copyright.

Neal Schaffer:

Gotcha. Okay. So I guess in terms of the value for our listeners, obviously that the trademark obviously is seems to be the most valuable thing to to really consider. But don't forget if you have you know, printed or videos or you know, documents, that copyright aspect is something you don't want to forget is that sort of the the best way to think about these two,

Bao Tran:

absolutely but don't forget about a third element most people don't think about in the trademark context, which is they call it a design patent. So a design patent covers ornamental designs, ie nothing functional. So if you look at the apple versus Samsung case, the Apple iPhone is also protected as a design pattern, the rectangular shape with the curved curves at the edges. That's part of a design pattern. So even though you know when you think of trademark, it wouldn't have anything to do with the patents there is an overlap in that particular angle. And then when you combine the three of them together, you have a very potent Intellectual property portfolio that you can use to increase your company valuation and certainly prevent people from misusing your hard work, you know, are you rubbing off from your advertisement expenditure or all your work in creating that brand. So you know, you can control the exclusivity of that to your your work.

Neal Schaffer:

And patent licensing just may become a huge revenue stream for me, I know there are technology companies that just exist off of that, they found that the IP, they never manufactured it, but when others wanted a manufacturer, they had to use their patent so that we can open up some potentially lucrative revenue streams, correct?

Bao Tran:

Yes. And, you know, with the advent of the NF T's, now, it's becoming very hot. Right? So So yes, I think technology is always evolving, and there's always ways to cut costs and, and provide more value to the user. So So yeah, I mean, if you think of the NF T's, essentially, these are designs that are that you're giving the end user the real authentic copy of a particular something, you know, and and so that's, that's yet another tool in your arsenal to increase how your brand is used and viewed by other people in the marketplace.

Neal Schaffer:

So the I said the NFT, should be trademark copyrighted patented,

Bao Tran:

Well, certainly at least copyrighted I mean, you think of a classic NF T, you're talking about they taking a picture of a meme, or whatever. And then they say, okay, because you know, digital, in a digital world, a picture could be copied so fast. So So what they do is they use an NF T, to say this is a certified true copy to digital copy, with a, let's say, a restricted circulation of let's say, I don't know, 100,000 copies of this. And that's why the nfps have value over just a copy, which is unauthorized. So these are just, you know, it's part of this evolving Arsenal's and how you use to control the exclusivity or how people view a particular product or a particular brand.

Neal Schaffer:

Yeah, perhaps out of all this conversation, the NFT is something that I know a lot of my followers are very, very interested in. I know some content entrepreneurs that are I know, in content marketing, Joe pulizzi, in his new company, the tilt, I know that they've created some NF T's for their company, and they're trying to create their own mini economies. And I think more and more companies are going to do this, you've provided us a tremendous amount of things to think about for our business. And I'm wondering, while I'm thinking that a lot of people listening are probably going to go well, you know, I want to I need to learn more about this. I need to have an advisor, like Val on my side. So how can people find out more about you know, you know, where to go to find out more about you and your company? And what you're at what's on the roadmap? Sure.

Bao Tran:

So yeah, I can be reached me Tran at pattern pc.com. So that's my law, legal side of it. And as Neil, as you alluded to, we are working on a software company to help cut the cost of IP protection then by a factor of 10. And how we do that is through the use of artificial intelligence that guides you through the process of IP creation. So that's a different company. That's called power patent.com. So yeah, and we hope to update in the short future the of the lunch

Neal Schaffer:

Great, so be tram bt ra n, at patent pc.com, NASA beautiful, and then be on the lookout for power patent, I'm really excited about where that's going to go. And it's a great mission you're on you're you're educating, and in doing so in many ways, you're helping so many businesses. So kudos on the work so far. And I know that this episode is going to help educate a lot of business owners and entrepreneurs and marketers on all these different legal aspects. And somehow we had heard of before, but we didn't really see what impact it might have on our business. So thank you so much.

Bao Tran:

I think you know, keep up the great work. I always enjoy your you know, listening to your web webinars and always learn something on marketing. It's, it's amazing how much knowledge you have in that space.

Neal Schaffer:

Well, thank you, my friend today you were the teacher and I was the student. So thank you for your time.

Bao Tran:

Great. Thank you. All right. I

Neal Schaffer:

hope you really enjoyed that interview. I know that I did. It was very open eye opening, I learned a ton. And as I promised you at the beginning, I'm hoping now you have a review of the landscape. Maybe there's something you don't need to do immediately. But at least you know what's out there. You know what you need to do to protect yourself everything that you've you've listened to this podcast and taken my advice. Well, you don't want all of that to go to waste. And therefore, you want to become the next apple and not the next company that ended up you know, losing a court battle and having to change their name and losing brand equity for instance. So hey, once again, I always appreciate your listening to this podcast. Did you know that in addition to this podcast, where every episode you can listen to on my website, including all the show notes and get access to the links from every single podcast episode, and it's actually searching In fact, it's probably easier to search for a particular topic and what I've talked about on this podcast, rather than doing so in the podcast app that you're listening to right now, so go over to podcast dot Neal schaffer.com ne al, SCA j double f er COMM And while you're there, go check out Neal Schaffer calm as well. I have more than 400 blog posts, covering all sorts of topics like we cover here in the podcast, consider it a supplemental educational resource that you can utilize in addition to this podcast, but hey, that's it for another episode of The your digital marketing coach podcast. This is your digital marketing coach signing out. You've been listening to your digital marketing coach, questions, comments, requests, links, go to podcast dot Neal schaffer.com. Get the show notes to this and 200 plus podcast episodes, and Neal Schaffer calm to tap into the 400 plus blog post that Neil has published to support your business. While you're there, check out Neil's digital first group coaching membership community if you or your business needs a little helping hand. See you next time on your digital marketing coach.